The Oracle of Death

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by maradine

So the implication is that, even for Prowler pilots who pull AP, they're still farming infantry?

I was, got over 80 kills in one run. They are highly effective at sniping infantry when used while deployed. Might just have become the TR mindset, I'm certainly guilty of this.

[Plaqueis]

Originally Posted by maradine

So the implication is that, even for Prowler pilots who pull AP, they're still farming infantry?

double post, sorry.

[Plaqueis]

Originally Posted by maradine

So the implication is that, even for Prowler pilots who pull AP, they're still farming infantry?

Oh, snap.

Just to continue;

Let's pretend the comment was true; Lightning is the same for everyone. Why is Prowler so much better against infantry than other MBT's?

[Chaff]

.
I am certainly prone to having some epic brain farts. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

On the PROWLER, the HE numbers do seem to indicate a possible imbalance over the other 2 Empires ES HE turret.

However, on the LIGHTNING HE, with the exact same NS weaponry, we see the NC & VS scoring over 40% higher KPU vs the TR LIGHTNING gunners.

In the last year I have learned to enjoy playing ALL 3 empires. Whenever I go against NC, I tend to find their Lighning Drivers/Gunners clearly outclass the other 2 Empire Lightning drivers/gunners. IMHO, of course. (well, the numbers do show a little short-sightedness with the NC LIGHNNING DRIVERS/GUNNERS in ONE area. They're LAST with Skyguard efficiency (per KPU).

I simply don't get the discrepancy on the LIGHTNING numbers for the HE. How can ONE Empire be so low vs the other two ? Until I come across a decent explanation/theory .... I'm left to question all discrepancies between the different ES weapons ..... be they primary or 2ndary weapons.

On NS vehicles, I would expect NS weapons to stay within +/- 3% KPU from one Empire to the next.

I could be persuaded to believe that perhaps those slimy VS could have some slight advantage under low-light (night?) conditions with certain NS guns. If the NC & TR have a harder time picking out dark tights (in the dark) ........

I know I like to go commando with my VS at night. No cammo. Dark purple cirque de soleil tights are stealthy enough.
.

[PredatorFour]

Probably because the Prowler is that good at farming infantry. Us and NC use HE lightnings to farm as good/similar.

[maradine]

My guess is that the average TR Lightning HE gunner is 10 BR less than the average NC Lightning HE gunner.

It could also be that the id numbers got munged - feel free to double check that I've applied the right faction to the right weapon id.

Results coming in on EvilPig's query, will be edited in here:

Global Death Stream, project inception to end of GU13

Vanu Soverignty
1,537,990 Kills
37,407 Unique Killers
41.1150 kpu
40.7833 avgBR

New Conglomerate
1,418,202 Kills
38, 328 Unique Killers
37.0017 kpu
38.8333 avgBR

Terran Republic
1,556,638 Kills
38,566 Unique Killers
40.3630 kpu
39.6361 avgBR

That's a <2% margin between #1 and #2, and a 11% margin between #1 and #3.

[ChipMHazard]

I suspect the other factions use the Lightning for mainly AI purposes, a desire many TR players apparently do not share.
Why is the Prowler better, or at least used more often, against infantry? Anchored Mode and/or two barrels.

[Chaff]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

I was, got over 80 kills in one run. They are highly effective at sniping infantry when used while deployed. Might just have become the TR mindset, I'm certainly guilty of this.

Over EIGHTY ?
OVER 80 ?
On ONE run ?
With an AP turret ?

Perhaps it's guys ike YOU who skew KPUs so far out of whack they really aren't telling us the picture the "average" player should want to know.

.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

I suspect the other factions use the Lightning for mainly AI purposes, a desire many TR players apparently do not share.
Why is the Prowler better, or at least used more often, against infantry? Anchored Mode and/or two barrels.

It's the 2 shots. All other tank weapons (other than the Viper or lightnings) need to do a long reload for every shot and a miss hurts. Prowlers can afford to miss and still be able to fight. They also have by far the shortest reload times.

2 shots, fastest reloads, and can cert into even faster reloads and travel speeds. That makes for pure infantry farm compared to the others.

[Plaqueis]

You're still assuming it's because of the infantry farming. So;

Oh great Oracle, is it possible to pull data for armor kills only on MBT's? If this mortal is asking too much, could your greatness combine all tank kills (Lightnings&MBT's) on one datasheet? I'm too lazy to do this from the sheets already presented, i beg your mercy for being so worthless.

EDIT: If this has already been done, i'm sorry for my ignorance. I missed that one.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Chaff

Over EIGHTY ?
OVER 80 ?
On ONE run ?
With an AP turret ?

Perhaps it's guys ike YOU who skew KPUs so far out of whack they really aren't telling us the picture the "average" player should want to know.

.

That kill streak only happened once, but I could quite easily get 30-40+ kills by just farming bases. Of course I wasn't being useful beyond making enemies respawn a few meters away
I guess my point was that just because a weapon has a lot of kills behind it doesn't necessarily mean that said weapon is useful when it comes to a fair fight (So to speak).

Originally Posted by Plaqueis

You're still assuming it's because of the infantry farming.

I don't see what else could explain the difference in kills. If it was because of the Prowler completely decimating any and all armoured targets then we would see the TR dominate all servers and the forums would be aflame with threads about it. Last time I saw, was back before the Magrider nerfing, the Magrider had the greatest K/D when it came to MBT battles. I don't see why the Prowler would suddenly have taken that spot, at least not to such an extent.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Plaqueis

You're still assuming it's because of the infantry farming. So;

Oh great Oracle, is it possible to pull data for armor kills only on MBT's?

Short answer: I don't know. I'm looking into it - seems to be the crux in a number of discussions.

[Varsam]

Originally Posted by maradine

In this interpretation, how would you interpret the Striker? (post #142)

I'd say that the Striker is overwhelmingly popular as the go-to lock-on for the TR - the TR ES lock-on uniques are a fraction of their VS and NC counterparts.

The closely grouped quartile KPUs is indicative of the Striker's oversimplicity - its design makes it simultaneously easy to use for all skill levels while leaving no ceiling for more skilled players to excel. The slightly lower ABR (which I'm guessing means average BR of uniques) compared to the other two ES launchers corroborates this.

Originally Posted by maradine

I'd also like to point out that, if we see KPU go up with BR quartile, for what is reasonably interpreted as skill/exp reasons, then we have independent confirmation that kpu reflects the effectiveness of the user/weapon pair. When we take the whole group, we are left with the weapon.

Put simply: if skill has an effect on KPU (it seems to), it reasonably follows that weapon effectiveness does as well, independent of the popularity of the weapon.

I'm sure that weapon effectiveness does indeed have an effect on KPU, but there are also so many other variables affecting it as well (both known to us and unknown) that attempting to infer meaning in KPU trends in anything but very broad contexts means you also get myriad outliers, exceptions, and contradictions which hurts the very argument you were trying to make. There are also major factors that contribute to weapon effectiveness that we simply don't have metrics for, like area denial.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Varsam

I'd say that the Striker is overwhelmingly popular as the go-to lock-on for the TR - the TR ES lock-on uniques are a fraction of their VS and NC counterparts.


The closely grouped quartile KPUs is indicative of the Striker's oversimplicity - its design makes it simultaneously easy to use for all skill levels while leaving no ceiling for more skilled players to excel. The slightly lower ABR (which I'm guessing means average BR of uniques) compared to the other two ES launchers corroborates this.

edit: sorry, totally broke that quote up there.

Yes, but it's an extremely (even ludicrously) popular weapon with a lower KPU than a less popular counterpart, was the point I was making.

Originally Posted by Varsam

I'm sure that weapon effectiveness does indeed have an effect on KPU, but there are also so many other variables affecting it as well (both known to us and unknown) that attempting to infer meaning in KPU trends in anything but very broad contexts means you also get myriad outliers, exceptions, and contradictions which hurts the very argument you were trying to make. There are also major factors that contribute to weapon effectiveness that we simply don't have metrics for, like area denial.

I agree completely. I also think that, like in any large sample set, many of the outliers, exceptions, and contradictions tend to cancel out, especially when looking at things in the same item class over long periods of time.

I get that there are lots of things we don't know here, and I also get that there are a bunch of unmeasureables. You make the best effort on a model with the best data you get, and you try to make it better with every revision. I said it early on - everyone is welcome to take away whatever they want from this project. I haven't seen anyone use that license to fly off the handle and ask for ridiculous things. I think there's a healthy dose caution here. And pardon, because I'm using this post to segue right into a data set -




Original here: http://bit.ly/16LFGEk

[Omnimon]

Thanks for the reply oh great Oracle of Death. I guess there are limits but, I suppose that there's only so many different ways of slicing and cutting up the data. I'm sure there's probably a way to pull it since PSU has that aspect , but I don't know what off sets / values that are required for that to work . Might have to ask Hamma for that heh .

Just one request, I just wanted to see how the various AA guns were working between factions along with the ESF/ liberator / galaxy guns for KPU say pulled for 1 or 2 days ? . It'll be interesting to see what values might turn up, unless that is too much to ask .

Meanwhile I'll be sure to soak Vanu Archives ( if the TR are there ) with the heretic(s) blood :P .