Be Constructive when referencing PlanetSide 1 - Page 13

Assist · 2013-02-26, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Death2All

Unfrotunately that doesn't happen. Here's what does:

Someone makes a thread comparing and contrasting PS1 and PS2.

Legions of angry PS2 fanboys jump in the thread making off topic, non-constructive posts an insults to the OP for being a bitter vet

The flaming and bashing gets so bad to the point that Hamma has to scold the community for "being idiots" then locks the thread.

That's how nearly every PS1 vs PS2 contrast thread ends up. And it's usually the PS2 players that derail the threads, yet it's the PS1 players that get the blame.

I don't agree with your assessment of this at all. All the constructive PS1 posts that reference PS2 are well received on PSU and even on the official forums.
Read through this thread and you see the PS1 vets coming out with attacks on PS2 and anyone who defends PS2. This thread alone proves you wrong, without even having to go to the other threads. There's even someone who brought in the developers experience in PS1, come on.. I mean really?

There's a difference between being a bitter vet and being one of the angry vets who go out of their way to throw a tantrum about every single thing the PS2 dev's do. What they don't realize is that 95% of the people here are PS1 vets, just the really angry ones seem to think they're special and deserve special treatment. The problem is not people who mention PS1, the problem is people who mention PS1 as strictly being better because they said so

! Who cares if they feel PS1 is better, that doesn't help PS2 become better in any way.

Sturmhardt · 2013-02-26, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Hamma

Read the previous posts.

I did. Your point?

.sent via phone.

Death2All · 2013-02-26, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

Who cares if they feel PS1 is better, that doesn't help PS2 become better in any way.

How does that make any sense? PS1 and PS2 are very similar in the sense that they're both MMOFPS games with three factions fighting over territory. The only difference between the the two games are there mechanics. PS1 players try to point out these mechanics and explain how they would work well with PS2, as PS1 had similar issues, then said mechanics were implmented into the games.

It's more of a "listen to your elders" sort of thing than it is "PS2 IS SHIT PS1 IS BETTER" like you make it out to be.

Why wouldn't you want feedback and listen to someone who has played a similar game. It's not like most of the proposed mechanics would endanger the game any way. Most mechanics proposed are there to improve the meta game, not make it play like a shooter from 2003. Unfortunately no one can see past someone praising PS1 and goes off to bash them and dismiss their point.

Zeta · 2013-02-26, 10:54 PM

lol all I heard on YouTube and facebook today was how Hamma HATES ps1.

Now I see where the thread came from.

Figment · 2013-02-27, 04:38 AM

Guys, do be fair to Hamma, he didn't say don't compare to PS1, he said to just argument it properly and not just nostalgise.

What pissed people off though Hamma, is that you adressed only one side of the debate. If we have to explain to people how something worked in PS1 like D2A said, you get ridiculed. I have never seen any mod action taken on this ignorance based behaviour, ever. Instead, you are called out by your opposition that doesn't like to think of themselves as inexperienced and therefore ignorant noobs; they instead demand a position of equal authority in the discussion based on nothing at all. Their arguments are incomplete, false and usualy based entirely on speculation, bias to what they know is in game now and more of that. Especially if they exploit the current system. What happens is they usualy start abusing the person with the audacity to request change and the "mere mentioning of PS1" has become a stick for them to hit you with by default.

Similarly, I have never seen mod action taken to anyone who used the term "bittervet".

I have never seen mod action taken against people who use insulting l2p arguments when one complains about spawncamping or other problematic features of PS2.

I have never seen mod action taken to someone who says "Go back to ps1" or "Go make your own game then".

I have never seen a mod step in as arbiter in discussions to tell PS2 fanboys to stop posting about the current design and think along with future design (and why this would be good or bad or how a suggestion could be improved) instead of trolling and derailing the thread by repeating information everyone knows and people actually have the issue with.

Those people are the ones I at least can't take serious in too many debates. Why do I then reference PS1? Because those issues had been solved! Most of the time I will also point out the minor issues that remained in PS1 and how that could be solved. Especially considering the context of PS2 with its bigger playercount per map.

But what happens next? You will get called out on "just wanting PS1.5" or "just wanting PS1". And again, I have yet to see any mod adres that trolling behaviour.

And by adressing I mean calling out that behaviour as unwanted. Usualy they come in by the time a thread has turned to flames from both sides and they just lock or tell people to get back on topic. The behaviour itself - As far as I'm aware at least - isn't really adressed. Excuse me if it is adressed in private, but it seems as acceptable behaviour in public.

Ps: As for devs not having a lot of experience playing ps1, on a command level I can't say I see any evidence of such for the design team as a whole. It is imperative that player experience is passed on to all devs. Remniscing on how things worked in ps1 can be a good way to illustrate alternate mechanics and any issues that had in order to create a better and more complete perspective of the mechanic. Nobody who played ps1 knows everything about te game since we all had our specialisms. But often I even miss some of the basic common sense, that doesn't inspire me with the confidence that they know or that if a member of the design team is aware, that this knowledge has been transfered to the appropriate people or if it has been attempted, that this knowledge transfer was succesfully completed.

Hence I don't think it is wise to put a moratorium on experiences from the past. However, it could be an idea to create a player feedback subforum for PS1 experiences on certain types of gameplay to reflect on which elements helped to create certain flows. Not quite plain ps1 discussion, so to speak.

Pella · 2013-02-27, 05:15 AM

Thought i would leave this here.

PS1 is dead. And will never come back. Remeber the good times and move on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqxy_xtPPpA

BlazingSun · 2013-02-27, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by ShockFC

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps/po...id=88000027880

I'm just going to leave this here. Post date: 7/12/2011

"How can such a great community of people ruin the sequel of the game that brought us together? The answer to this question is simple: Planetside 2 will NOT be the same as Planetside 1. The Planetside community, i assure you all, will ruin this game if they continue down this track."

Called it.

What exactly is there to ruin?? The game is downright boring 90% of the time.

Assist · 2013-02-27, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Death2All

It's more of a "listen to your elders" sort of thing than it is "PS2 IS SHIT PS1 IS BETTER" like you make it out to be.

Once again I disagree, most of the PS1 > PS2 posts are exactly as the second part of your statement reads. You raelly think Hamma posted this out of the blue? I think you should read these posts rather than the name of the person who posted them.
Why you seem to think PS1 angry vets are 'elders' compared to the rest of us I don't understand. I played PS1 on release, I know what the game was and in my own opinion I know why it failed to retain even 15% of it's player base after one year. Your opinion on this is completely different and you seem to think that because an individual stuck with a dead game for 7 years they should have a more valued opinion than the rest of us. You know what I think about the guy who still uses the 8-track tape? I think he's loony and opinions on MP3's are just a little bit irrelevant. But that's my opinion, and you have your own opinion, the difference is that you think your opinion should matter more than mine and I don't feel that way.

Figment · 2013-02-27, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Assist

I played PS1 on release, I know what the game was and in my own opinion I know why it failed to retain even 15% of it's player base after one year.

That's interesting of you to say, since the player populace didn't start to decline till 1.5 years in (Core Combat expansion and its Flail spam opening weeks, Juli 2004) and the absolute drop in population took 1.75 years (Aftershock Expansion and its OP BFRs. nov 2004) to set in, followed by World of Warcraft release and a stop on marketing. The population didn't reach 15% till 2 years later (march-may 2005), where it had been steadily rising since launch (may 2003) up till the release of Core Combat.

Just saying... Calender maths isn't that hard.

As for the rest of your post, first prove this new tech is actually better and not a flashy form of telegraph where we already have email.

ChipMHazard · 2013-02-27, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

As for the rest of your post, first prove this new tech is actually better and not a flashy form of telegraph where we already have email.

He doesn't have to prove anything in that respect when it's his opinion on the matter of game quality. That's the thing about opinions, everyone has one and they are all valid.
Personally I think that PS1 is better balanced, features better metagaming and I would like to see underground bases again. I don't see PS2 being so much inferior as much as I do incomplete, I guess that in some ways that could be viewed as being the same thíng.

Assist · 2013-02-27, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

That's interesting of you to say, since the player populace didn't start to decline till 1.5 years in (Core Combat expansion and its Flail spam opening weeks, Juli 2004) and the absolute drop in population took 1.75 years (Aftershock Expansion and its OP BFRs. nov 2004) to set in, followed by World of Warcraft release and a stop on marketing. The population didn't reach 15% till 2 years later (march-may 2005), where it had been steadily rising since launch (may 2003) up till the release of Core Combat.

Just saying... Calender maths isn't that hard.

As for the rest of your post, first prove this new tech is actually better and not a flashy form of telegraph where we already have email.

Game release May 03? Core Combat released Oct. 03 ? That would be not even 6 months, not quite the 1.5 years you stated (must be those Calender maths). Going just by outfit #'s PS1 lost almost 70% subs in those 5 months. Regardless, 15% after your estimated 2 years is bad for an MMO during a time when MMO's were growing population at ridiculous rates.

I also don't know how you want to judge the tech as better, what measurement would you like to use? One faction has more players than PS1 ever had subs at one time. My guess is revenue has surpassed PS1 already. Graphics are better, more player, more value, what would you like to use as a measurement? Nostalgia? I'd say the new tech is without a doubt better, unless you preferred PS1 combat to PS2. The problem is elements of the game are missing, and we know that and more importantly they know that. It's just a matter of time until some of those additions are put in. I'd rather have the game as it is now than wait another year play. If some players would rather they waited, well, they can always wait on their own.

Hamma · 2013-02-27, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by ShockFC

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps/po...id=88000027880

I'm just going to leave this here. Post date: 7/12/2011

"How can such a great community of people ruin the sequel of the game that brought us together? The answer to this question is simple: Planetside 2 will NOT be the same as Planetside 1. The Planetside community, i assure you all, will ruin this game if they continue down this track."

Called it.

You haven't called anything, the game is far from ruined.

Kerrec · 2013-02-27, 09:32 AM

I am one of the "newbs" to Planetside. If you can call someone with 6+ days played a newb. Even if I play 1000 hours of PS2, I'll still be pigeonholed into the newb category because I never played PS1. Not to say I haven't read up about PS1 when faced with "you don't know anything" arguments.

That being said, I don't really care where ideas come from. I have played so many different kinds of games, that some things PS1 vets claim as "the great solutions" of PS1 are just not new ideas to me. Even though I've never played PS1, the different options, strategies and whatnot are STILL part of my gaming experiences. I just never played THAT game that put those ideas in THAT combination.

I have opinions. They are often opposite to other people's opinions. And I really lose respect when the only reply I get to my point of view, is "You don't have enough experience, hence your opinion is worthless." If my opinion was really out to lunch, it would be EASY to point out the error in a way that leaves no room to argue without resorting to such garbage replies. But people still resort to "you don't know sh!t" instead. To me, that just means they don't like being challenged on their points of view and want me to go away. Too bad for them.

So yeah, Hamma is saying enough with the "PS1 is all the justification that is needed" arguments. Conversations that devolve into "you've never played PS1 so go away" or "you're a PS1 fanboy and you just want PS1.5" is pure noise that is drowning out the signal. I agree with him that this kind of nonsense devalues all the work he's put into this community. I applaud him for trying to put a stop to it. And I'll do my best to follow his standard.

There are a few SIGNIFICANT things about PS2 that should be accounted for in any gameplay suggestion:

1) PS2 is a Free to Play game. 3 characters per account, and an individual can make infinite accounts to get around any kind of restriction. Any kind of restriction that forces players to switch accounts to do what they want will just piss off players instead of improve the game.
2) PS2 makes it's money from microtransactions. Things have been bought, and new game mechanics forcing a player to permanently choose between one thing he's bought and another thing he's bought will never happen. Same as flat out removing something that has been in the game and purchased by players.
3) A server can have 6000 players on it. 2000 per continent. It is unlikely, but feasible that a large portion of those 2000 players MAY end up in one area. This is NOT good. The game NEEDS those players to be more spread out over a larger area.

Tatwi · 2013-02-27, 09:42 AM

"My guess" - Figment's case closed. Assist, you can guess all you like until you're blue in the face, but it would be appreciated if you would stop attacking people (in this thread and others) who don't reside within your particular interpretation of reality. It seems as though anyone who does not kiss your ass and blindly agrees with you ends up being a target of your attempts to invalidate their perspective. It's childish, annoying, and entirely unhelpful. Give it a rest.

Satanam · 2013-02-27, 10:10 AM

This topic should have been created before, it's too late to go against the PS1 massive quotes. Seems like some guys need to show off that they played PlanetSide by telling how PlanetSide 2 should work. There's a reply from a guy at PlanetSide 2 forum who bi*ched on the other guy, because he didn't play PlanetSide and was trying to suggest something. That was funny because you could see how stupid he was, but it was also sad because an unkind community can keep away some new players.
Well, I believe sometimes it's good to give suggestions based on PlanetSide or any other game, as almost nothing is created without a base and we can easily see it on games and movies. But if we focus on PlanetSide as it's "the ultimate base" for the future of PlanetSide 2, we'll be playing PlanetSide with better textures and higher details.
I mean, the factions and details for each faction's exclusive characters/vehicles/guns are based on what we can see in PlanetSide (better designed because of the technology we have nowadays), but it shouldn't work (and I'm glad it doesn't) exactly like PlanetSide.
Let PlanetSide 2 grow up, let it evolve based on old concepts that worked, and mix it with new concepts that would probably work.