Science vs Religion - Page 14

MadPenguin · 2011-10-19, 09:06 AM

God made salvation available to anyone, not just people who have a set of motives that mere men may regard as worthy.

If we had to be perfect, or even anywhere near it before being acceptable to Jesus Christ, who could be saved?

I laughed so hard at this. I think i have finally gotten used to you just ignoring the main points i put forward and going after my side points of little relevance.

People are stating what they believe, here, and I'm stating what I believe. Convincing? That is God's job, not mine. I state what I believe. Whether anyone is convinced or not is not in my purview.

For sure, people are just stating their beliefs. And if someone came on this post and stated their belief that unicorns and faires are real, they would recieve just as much riducule as you are recieving. In fact the funny thing is they would recieve less because while what they are saying isnt supported by science or reason, it at least doesnt go against it. Whereas a lot of the points you make go against both.

Traak · 2011-10-19, 09:13 AM

Jesus still loves you. He came to the Earth, lived, did miracles, was crucified, went to hell, paid the price for the sin of mankind, and rose again from the dead. He accepts any who come to him.

MadPenguin · 2011-10-19, 09:24 AM

Jesus still loves you. He came to the Earth, lived, did miracles, was crucified, went to hell, paid the price for the sin of mankind, and rose again from the dead. He accepts any who come to him.

I refuse to even have a shred of respect for, let alone worship and love, a being who punishes with eternal hellfire those who refuse to accept his ultimate authority, this is the ultimate in dictatorship. What can i say, im a man of principles

If a man went round torturing to death people who wouldnt praise him as their master, even someone like you can see this man is evil. But when religion enters the equation, so many people are blinded and cant see the wrong doing there.

Traak · 2011-10-19, 09:35 AM

It's like railing against a guy who owns a club. The club is members only. He is standing at the door handing out free membership cards. And people are saying "That is unfair! He should let us in without a membership card!" But, anyone can have a card. They're free.

But people stand outside on the sidewalk and instead choose to curse him for not letting them in without a membership card. He isn't responsible for what happens to you if you choose to stay outside, you are.

MadPenguin · 2011-10-19, 10:18 AM

It's like railing against a guy who owns a club. The club is members only. He is standing at the door handing out free membership cards. And people are saying "That is unfair! He should let us in without a membership card!" But, anyone can have a card. They're free.

But people stand outside on the sidewalk and instead choose to curse him for not letting them in without a membership card. He isn't responsible for what happens to you if you choose to stay outside, you are.

No, that is a terrible analogy. Let me give you one closer to the Christian belief.

A guy owns a club. He stands outside his club telling everyone that they should get in the club, for anyone left outside this club come nightfall is going to be put on the rack and tortured until they die. There is however, a cost to get in the club; you have to tell this guy how awesome he is, get on your knees and tell him you love him more than you love your own family, and actually mean it, because little do you know, he can actually tell whether you mean it or not. You also have to make sacrifices to appease this man in order to get in.

Unfortunately for everyone outside the club, he provides absolutely no reason to believe this, you are just expected to accept that what this random guy is saying is true. Consider that you are walking along a street and someone tells you this, you cant seriously be telling me that you would believe him and accept the terms and conditions of entering his club. You wouldn't enter like everyone else and come nightfall, you would be tortured to death. And it turns out the guy who owns the club loves you all very much. Its absolute BS.

The christian God, should he exist, hasnt given any rationally minded person a hope in hell of attaining paradise, since no rational person could believe this jibberish.

Traak · 2011-10-19, 10:22 AM

I'm sorry you believe God is that bad.

Quovatis · 2011-10-19, 10:45 AM

A great and pretty accurate analogy MadPenguin. And Traak, that's not just what he believes, the bible pretty much says all that too. You just ignore all the bits that you don't like.

Crator · 2011-10-19, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

I'm sorry you believe God is that bad.

LOL, his belief in God is not that bad, it's non-existent. :P

MadPenguin · 2011-10-19, 11:47 AM

Dont be sorry for me, i have the company of science and reason on my side. Were I you, I would start looking for what I have on my side and re-evaluate which stance is more likely to be correct, I guarantee you losing ones religion changes one not at all, that coming from first hand experience.

Effective · 2011-10-19, 05:55 PM

Quovatis · 2011-10-21, 06:37 PM

Rapture, take 2, was a bust yet again today. +1 to science.

You might laugh the guy off as a nutjob, but sadly many "mainstream" religious followers believe equally stupid nonsense disproved by science.

Traak · 2011-10-22, 02:34 AM

It's the same old thing, always a new wrapper: "I don't want God, here are my reasons."

Or, "I love God, here are mine."

Sirisian · 2011-10-22, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

It's the same old thing, always a new wrapper: "I don't want God, here are my reasons."

Or, "I love God, here are mine."

It's the same old thing, always a new wrapper: "I don't believe in deities, here are my reasons."

Or, "I want a God, here are mine."

CutterJohn · 2011-10-22, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

It's the same old thing, always a new wrapper: "I don't want God, here are my reasons."

Or, "I love God, here are mine."

Which would all be perfectly fine if people from group B didn't try to push their beliefs onto group A with legislation.

Everyone thinks murder is bad and should be against the law. But what groups are against gay marriage? I think we all know that. Why can't I buy beer on sunday in some states? Why is prostitution illegal, gambling illegal, drugs illegal? In some parts of the world women can't show their faces or heads. Here they just can't show their chest. Different body part, same religious nonsense.

TRex · 2011-10-22, 05:55 AM

For me, its all down to faith and what you believe. It's not an arguement between science v religion.

Look at this weeks news : Colonel Gedaffi is dead , yet some people in Libya are still uncertain of this fact unless they actually see his dead body . That just goes to all the misinformation and propoganda they have been fed for the last 30+ years.

I believe that there is a country called Japan , I've never been there . I've bought items with 'Made in Japan' on them . I can see the world map and its stuck there just to the right of another imaginary country called China. I go on faith that all this information about Japan is true based upon what other sentient beings around me that I can see believe in it also. I also presume that I'm not part of some Matrix and that these people are real.

Time-warp back a few thousand years to the middle east . Some guy tries to explain that hes just seen a burning bush which was talking to him and said he should bring his son back up the hill and kill his son to honour the burning bush . In a modern context this guy would belong in the 'One flew over the cuckoos nest' academy and probably be in there before his feet touched the ground.
Jump a couple of thousand years forward in same area, and a new guy turns up with some new teachings .Ironically this guy ends up at the behest of the burning bush bregade upon a wooden cross . This guy , according to his pals in their writings , once went into a temple and had a hissy fit throwing tables over etc and saying they should not worship false idols . He stated that wherever you worship , be it your home or whatever , is where worship belongs.

Manipulate and hand pick (and maybe add a few of your own along the way ie 'adjust' the writings as you go ) these writings, ensure that only your own mates are allowed to read the text and talk about it for the next 1800 years. Take any property and dwellings as you see fit 'In the Name of' , tax everyone on your confiscated land , evict anyone who dosen't comply and burn anyone else who even attempts to join your club . Even appoint your own ready-made 'God on earth' and stick him in a palace in which you amass all the wealth your corporation is profiting from. Countries don't adhere your your teachings ? Or a puppet king needs to fight his neighbour but lacks the funds ? Who you gonna call? Thats right 'Faithbusters' , at the right price and compliance to your new 'bank manager'.

Bring time forward to 21st century , people have a new religion , it has a trendy new and catchy name 'Capitalism' , along with it comes it's new preacher 'democracy' . People don't have to be burned at the stake for not paying their rent to the old burning bush bregade. It's still essentially all an illusion to the common man , but at least he's allowed to think that the utopia fed to him on high is attainable. The relative few with all the wealth use innovation and invention to drive the populace to buy their new product .It's no longer some mystical being they can't see or sceptical even exists , it's an i-Pod that they can hold in their very own hands.

Sure, we still see evidence of the burning bush bregade rear its head . In Rome in first few centuries AD it was the Christian 'terrorists' , In the Americas it was the local insurgency 'terrorists' annoying the British Colonial government (in the name of democracy) , and now we have the muslim extremist 'terrorist' rearing its ugly head in time-honoured fashion.

The line of faith is even more blurry , you sell weapons and ammunition secretly to the faithfull to make a profit , then go to war when one of these nutjobs uses their guns towards you , and the populace pays for both , double wammy profit.

Science allows people to understand why they they are dying , how to live to an increasing age in pursuit of eternal life :who needs a 2nd life in heaven when they can live forever here? Wealth tends to be accumulating over time , invested into property and belongings , and therefore on the whole the occupation of the middle aged. The young are there to feed these bloated sponges when they get older, and to be sent off to have their insides blown out in a war somewhere when elswhere in the world disagrees with their philosophies, or more likely ,threatens their growing ability to soak up more wealth and expand their balance sheets.

Religion does the same thing , it preys on the weak minded to do the behest of those 'In the Know' . It's just an out dated philosophy superceded by more 'logical' reasoning. As soon as you sign up to a particular 'branch' of religion , your faith becomes bound by the teaching of men , and loses sight of whether there is a god or ultimate being in the first place. You sold out! it's a safer bet to be part of a collective throng , and each reinforces each others idea that they are part of the winning and therefore correct phenomea. But, if it gives you peace of mind and comfort thats a good thing . If it allows those that preach to you the means to tax you whether voluntary or involuntary , then it's no different to all the other misgivings of religion in the past, or the pursuit of profit by modern corporations and their political arms in the name of the new religion money now.

As for me , I do sort of believe in a God , not this religious mumbo jumbo drivel drip fed over time. I even believe that there probably was some guys called Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed , Buddha and so on that had a real connection with the real power and reasoning within the Universe , and tried to make a difference by showing us the way. It's just that , as usual , Man fucks up time and time again and renders everything down to power struggle and control . Acqusition of land and wealth and influence.
Maybe in time we will have the next installment or deity beamed down to us from on high or interstellar flying saucer . Chances are we will probably just shoot them out of the sky with early warning system before they even enter out atmosphere. Or they will be on the next version of X factor , or thrown into the Big brother house.