Higby on Air/AA balance.. Is it the fast track to Airside? - Page 14

Lieken · 2012-12-02, 09:17 AM

I'm sure I replied to this already but idk

Anyway

This thread is filled with people who think 1 infantry should be able to kill an air unit super quick

Wrong, a lone infantry should have no chance against a jet

"but it takes 3 missiles to take down an ESF!!!" Then find 2 friends, the game is based around team work. MAX suits with dual flak can destroy air easy enough as well.

Stop thinking you can be a one man army in this game who needs to carry an entire AA missile battery on his back, that is not what this game is.

KaskaMatej · 2012-12-02, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Lieken

Stop thinking you can be a one man army in this game who needs to carry an entire AA missile battery on his back, that is not what this game is.

This is exactly what ESF are. One man army, capable of easy kills on air, ground and infantry.

Sturmhardt · 2012-12-02, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Lieken

I'm sure I replied to this already but idk

Anyway

This thread is filled with people who think 1 infantry should be able to kill an air unit super quick

Wrong, a lone infantry should have no chance against a jet

"but it takes 3 missiles to take down an ESF!!!" Then find 2 friends, the game is based around team work. MAX suits with dual flak can destroy air easy enough as well.

Stop thinking you can be a one man army in this game who needs to carry an entire AA missile battery on his back, that is not what this game is.

You should read the thread instead of blindly posting, we are way past that.

Figment · 2012-12-02, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by KaskaMatej

This is exactly what ESF are. One man army, capable of easy kills on air, ground and infantry.

And for some reason, they don't want to admit it, why? Because they think that tool providing that firepower (and being impossible to hit/kill from the ground by design) is suddenly "skill" if they survive and get streaks.

Same happened in PS1. Pilots always feel more equal than the others for some reason.

Crator · 2012-12-02, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

And for some reason, they don't want to admit it, why? Because they think that tool providing that firepower (and being impossible to hit/kill from the ground by design) is suddenly "skill" if they survive and get streaks.

Same happened in PS1. Pilots always feel more equal than the others for some reason.

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

Whiteagle · 2012-12-02, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Crator

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

Except I'm not even pulling my Skyguard due to how ineffective it is...

Rahabib · 2012-12-02, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

Sky guards cost resources.

KaskaMatej · 2012-12-02, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

Originally Posted by Rahabib

Sky guards cost resources.

and MAXes also cost resources.

Juryrig · 2012-12-02, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Same happened in PS1. Pilots always feel more equal than the others for some reason.

Same happens in real life. Have you ever MET a fighter pilot? Nice guys, but...well.... they just know they are shit hot. And they know you know they know it. And so on.

As to "one infantry unit should be able to kill an air unit super quick" - no, I don't think that, never have.

But infantry should have effective counters to air; ground to air missiles that hit often enough and do enough damage that pilots are wary of them, and have to use different tactics when attacking.

Approaching at speed to minimise the chance of being hit when over the target (with the associated disadvantages of having to acquire the target, aim, and fire in a short window of opportunity) should be a way for air to counter ground to air defenses, or at least mitigate risk.

Hovering within small-arms range to deliver a shedload of rockets on a precise point should be a once-only deal, as the ground units should be able to down the vehicle whilst it is essentially stationary in the air.

Originally Posted by RobUK

It's fine to have air vs air, tanks vs tanks, and troops vs troops, but those activities have to mesh together into a coherent combined arms game. Otherwise we will forever more being playing this fun but ultimately shallow giant deathmatch on huge maps.

Very well put.

Personally I think things need small tweaks. Ground to air missiles could do with being a little more effective. AA turrets could do with being a little more effective.

Unfortunately, once there is a mindset of "turrets are worthless" or "G to A missiles are worthless" people stop bothering to even try to use them, and those that do are scorned as n00bs. Then the only way we'll notice any adjustments is if they are huge buffs/nerfs, which is really NOT helpful. Hopefully communication from the devs will help prevent that happening.

CrankyTRex · 2012-12-02, 01:16 PM

As a pilot and occasionally a turret jockey, I think they have the balance either right on or still a little too high on the AA side. If you have any decent aim with one of those AA turrets, you can drive off and destroy aircraft very easily.

Flares have to be certed into instead of coming standard, so there's no defense against a missile lock for pilots that don't have the option to use them. Generally, a missile warning is going to force any aircraft to stop what they are doing and run if for no other reason there's no indication as to what locked on, and it's a lot harder to find out in the air than it is on the ground.

So one lone AA option goes a considerable way towards keeping aircraft away, or at least forcing them to break off rather than dominate a ground area, particularly lone-wolf aircraft. The problem is that it's almost never one lone AA option. In a game with this many players, it stacks up very quickly to the point that going into an area where people are bringing out AA is more or less suicidal.

Moreover, it costs tons of certs to get the good ground attack options. Yes, rocket pods are fantastic, but until you get them, you are utterly useless against ground targets. The minigun doesn't do enough damage to deter vehicles, and is too precise a cone of fire strafe infantry effectively.

Finally, on the philosophical side of it, I think air power should always dominate ground power. That's how it works in the real world. That's why air superiority is such a valued tactical situation, because ground-based AA is rarely effective at stopping air power. So ultimately, I agree with the original statement by Higby that if you want to kill aircraft, you need other aircraft.

KaskaMatej · 2012-12-02, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

So one lone AA option goes a considerable way towards keeping aircraft away

No, one lone AA will get destroyed in seconds when it open fire, even if it is only one ESF with rocket pods, AA gets destroyed.

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

Moreover, it costs tons of certs to get the good ground attack options.

And AA defence is free? Except for AA turrets (which are nearly useless) everything costs 1000 certs/700 smedbux. But unlike rocket pods, AA is bad.

Originally Posted by CrankyTRex

Finally, on the philosophical side of it, I think air power should always dominate ground power. That's how it works in the real world.

NO! This isn't real life, this is a game, and a game must be balanced! ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS, not ROCK-PAPER-ESF! Played enough games where air dominates everything, it gets old fast.

But say no more, you're a mostly pilot, you will say everything you can to make excuses for bad air-AA balance.

EZShot · 2012-12-02, 02:39 PM

Don't wanna be that guy but rocket pods are over powered as they are now. Every single player I know that plays this game agrees. Some use them some are victims.

All of us agree that they should halve the clip size maintaining the overall total payload. Firing twelve rockets takes no real accuracy, if you only had 4-6 in a volley it would require quite a bit more skill to actually finish the job.

Rocket pods are the only reason ESFs are becoming a problem. They also detract from the Liberators role on the field because rocket pods are arguably quicker to take out ground units, especially when you consider the fact that you can have 3 ESFs to every 1 fully crewed Liberator.

Before you cry out about there being AA in the game. NONE of it can take a single volley of rocket pods before being vaporised. AA turrets and lightnings are of next to no use, they aren't even a deterrent.

boogy · 2012-12-02, 04:39 PM

I really don't get how people hate on esfs while the real op air is the lib. Those things are near impossible to kill from the ground while a couple dual burster maxes can easily pick off esfs.

RobUK · 2012-12-02, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by boogy

I really don't get how people hate on esfs while the real op air is the lib. Those things are near impossible to kill from the ground while a couple dual burster maxes can easily pick off esfs.

Liberators die very quickly to ESF's

At one point that was supposed to be the food chain.

Liberators kill enemy vehicles, enemy ESF's kill Liberators and protect friendly vehicles from Liberators whilst killing enemy ESF's that are attacking friendly Liberators.

It was the perfect role for the ESF and would have made for a lot of fun.

Now ESF's just kill everything

Miffy · 2012-12-02, 06:16 PM

Lock on missiles and Flak are fine but the standard AA turrets on prowlers and default MAX units for both AA and AV are really weak.

I feel the problem really comes down to one thing though, rocket pods. Now the easiest way to balance them out is to have AV and AI rocket pods as seperate purchases. This way you have to choose if you want to be really good against vehicles or Infantry.

I don't want to see aircraft nerfed or AA buffed too much because then it wouldn't be fun to fly. However Libs and Galaxies are balanced perfectly, they're massive slow targets that never last too long and need the light aircraft to survive really.

There is only one unbalanced thing and that is rocket pods being both AI and AV, you need to purchase them separately and have to choose. If you lower the damage you make it useless, this way it balances it out so you cannot be master of all.