The Issue of the 10%-20% Power Differentiation

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Bags

I don't like any increase of power. I don't deserve to reload faster simply because I've been paying longer.

Semantics. I know you arn't argueing against any progression at all, even the PS1 cert system where you get more certs the more you level. Progression, leveling, unlocking, whatever you want to call it, is a popular feature in mmo's, hell in any video game. Trying to argue against any sort of progression at all is like trying to argue that pagers should be used. That ship sailed a long time ago.

So, you don't like the hypothetical "faster reload" skill because it gives someone too much power, but that very same arguement could be made for ANY progression. In PS1, even the BR20 days, you could cert in alot more things which made you more versatile i.e. more powerful in more situations.

Progression in it of itself is neccessary in a game like PS2.

[Bags]

My BR20 medapp was not stronger than a BR 1's medapp, so it's not really semantics.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Trying to argue against any sort of progression at all is like trying to argue that pagers should be used. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Not just in your video games either. There are a number of good TED talks on the subject of gamification in meatspace. Get started with Jesse Schell.

If you don't like leveling up, get ready to /wrist or move to Amish country.

Originally Posted by Bags

My BR20 medapp was not stronger than a BR 1's medapp, so it's not really semantics.

That's the point in specialization. To be better at something than the guy next to you who didn't put in the time. Dev has stated that the overall difference won't spike in any area but manifest as an overall increase in competence so it won't be game destroying. That and null sum +1/-1 type play feel customization but that doesn't apply as it's null sum.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Bags

My BR20 medapp was not stronger than a BR 1's medapp, so it's not really semantics.

It is semantics, because you are able to get a med app AND have other things where I don't have that same ability, hence you are more powerful. Just because the med apps do the same thing is completely moot when I don't even have one. Power is power no matter how you slice it. Capisce?

[exLupo]

It's granularity and accessibility.
PS1 BR1: HA
PS1 BR20: HA/Med/Engi

Leveling advantage means the shooter can heal and repair themselves. Clear power gap that is eliminated by grinding BR to 20 and allocating certs to matching specs.

PS2 BR1 0hrs: Basic MA
PS2 BR20 100hrs: MA w/ all the bells and whistles and a basic med tool
PS2 BR20 100hrs: Basic MA and a med tool with all the bells and whistles.
PS2 BR20 200hrs: MA and Med tool both maxxed out.

Clear power gap that is eliminated by allocating skill time to matching skills.

[Tikuto]

Remember, everyone. Simplified PlanetSide. Let's see that happen.

[kaffis]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Power progression that requires choices, as in you must choose which among a set of bonuses is active, is not bad and can work just fine.

Power progression that is always-on and based on time is just dumb and pointless.

Why does "always-on" have to be mutually exclusive with "requiring choices"?

Can't I have a limited number of opportunities (limited by progressively increasing time increments) to make choices between always-on bonuses?

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by exLupo

It's granularity and accessibility.
PS1 BR1: HA
PS1 BR20: HA/Med/Engi

Leveling advantage means the shooter can heal and repair themselves. Clear power gap that is eliminated by grinding BR to 20 and allocating certs to matching specs.

PS2 BR1 0hrs: Basic MA
PS2 BR20 100hrs: MA w/ all the bells and whistles and a basic med tool
PS2 BR20 100hrs: Basic MA and a med tool with all the bells and whistles.
PS2 BR20 200hrs: MA and Med tool both maxxed out.

Clear power gap that is eliminated by allocating skill time to matching skills.

What you just basically said is that there is an evident power gap between a BR20 and a BR1 due to choices and variety.

You then went on to say that in PlanetSide 2 a BR20 versus a BR1 has the same power gap, due to variety, except you added in the fact that the BR20's MA and med app were both maxed out. Once again, maxing them out is pointless. He already has a power differentiation due to having both MA and the med app. No need to tack on an extra 20% to various stats.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

What you just basically said is that there is an evident power gap between a BR20 and a BR1 due to choices and variety.

You then went on to say that in PlanetSide 2 a BR20 versus a BR1 has the same power gap, due to variety, except you added in the fact that the BR20's MA and med app were both maxed out. Once again, maxing them out is pointless. He already has a power differentiation due to having both MA and the med app. No need to tack on an extra 20% to various stats.

In this entire thread I have failed to see someone negate battle rank and cert points as a form of character progression.

No one has come out with a clean argument as to why progressing in BR and gaining cert points to unlock more choices is NOT considered progression. As far as I'm concerned it is. I stated a long time ago in this thread that during PlanetSide BR is what drove me. Power differentiation in terms of stats is not needed for motivation to advance in BR and unlock more options. But whatever. Not one person has addressed this.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by kaffis

Why does "always-on" have to be mutually exclusive with "requiring choices"?

Can't I have a limited number of opportunities (limited by progressively increasing time increments) to make choices between always-on bonuses?

They are mutually exclusive by definition. By "requiring choices" is a tradeoff decision. That requires choosing to have one thing over another.

There is no tradeoff with always-on bonuses; there is only the order in which you acquire them. Choosing the order is not a tradeoff. Increasing the time to train only makes a larger gap for new players to acquire the same power.

[Avirau]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

In this entire thread I have failed to see someone negate battle rank and cert points as a form of character progression.

No one has come out with a clean argument as to why progressing in BR and gaining cert points to unlock more choices is NOT considered progression. As far as I'm concerned it is. I stated a long time ago in this thread that during PlanetSide BR is what drove me. Power differentiation in terms of stats is not needed for motivation to advance in BR and unlock more options. But whatever. Not one person has addressed this.

This. No matter how you spin it, a BR20 will have an advantage over a BR1 in Planetside 1 even if both players have identical skill level.

A BR1 player has a total of 7 cert points. While it is true you could do a variety of things with these 7 points, I would probably put 3 into REXO, 2 into MA, and then have a whopping 2 certs left to spend. Can't even get HA.

The BR20 will have access to HA and a variety of other superior weapons, support skills like med/engi which allow him to repair, heal, and deploy support devices like mines and turrets. And, of course, he'll have access to aircraft and tanks, some of which can one-shot a BR1 player. BR20 has mathematical advantage in every way.

I dont see how someone can say that a 20% power advancement DOESN'T exist in PS1. Hell, I would guess that there is a 20% damage difference between MA and HA alone.

[EASyEightyEight]

But that's PS1. PS2 battlerank seems to only hinder the amount of skill you can train within trees, basically ensuring you're at least playing a little.

And reading Malorn's last few comments: our bickering was a misunderstanding?

That's mostly what I've been arguing for this whole time. No straight up personal increases. No dump 5 points here, get 15% more damage back. I've always supported "you can have this active, but you can't have this active as well." I mean, that's what I mean by weapon and armor mods!

I'm not for simply gain this, lose that though. Everyone starts at 0. Within a week, they should be able to get to 1 easy, and everything should be balanced around that. A player could upgrade to 2 or 3, but those too would be balanced around 1, they just would offer more extreme benefits at the cost of drawbacks:

0= Nothing.
1= +1 damage.
2= +2 damage -1 accuracy.
3= +3 damage -1 accuracy -1 RoF.

Just random ass-pull examples.

4 and 5 should be squad lead and outfit influenced, and are balanced around 1 as well, but together with personal benefits, up it to 2. Get in a squad and find a like minded outfit to match up.

But I prefer soloing

[Timmy]

I think this thread has honed the most important aspects to consider in terms of what direction the Devs want to take the game in the long run. So overall this thread is a success as long as the developers consider the consequences in implementation of bonuses and the effects on gameplay 5 years from now. Considering the only information out is being expressed as Percents % with no real values its clear why some people are being pessimistic about what the developers have in mind. We are asking the right questions NOW to keep them from building an "Escalation of Arms" system so to speak that as time progresses and tactics evolve to maximize the customizable buffs that balance is maintained for all play styles, for all battle ranks, and between each faction. Once the escalation starts it's hard to make big changes without severely upsetting your player base. Hopefully the discussion in this thread will keep the developers from making a Fundamental and Fatally flawed design so they won't have to chase down balance issues for the next 5 years.

One quick example about percentages... Everyone knows that the statistical Bell Curve exists. Yes a professor can add a % curve to raise those that didn't earn an "A" based on knowledge and performance, which doesn't necessarily affect the people that DID earn it. But what if the professor instead curved everyone that the middle 50% got an "A" and the top 25% instead got a "B"? What if that curve was based 100% on class attendance on non test days? This would be an example of a fundamental and fatal flaw, and that's exactly what's at risk here if the Devs get it wrong.

[Kouza]

I am all for it..... Technically speaking if you have a health MOD, in PS1 that`s a 20% advantage for an entire empire.

[kaffis]

Originally Posted by Malorn

There is no tradeoff with always-on bonuses; there is only the order in which you acquire them. Choosing the order is not a tradeoff. Increasing the time to train only makes a larger gap for new players to acquire the same power.

The only time there is no tradeoff, and it's only "the order in which you acquire them," is when you're able to acquire them all.

With time-based unlocks, and the intention to expand skill trees out as the game progresses, this is a silly assumption.

Here, let me work this out for you.

The 3-year plan says "major updates every 12 months."

The initial release includes 12 root skill tree branches. Each branch, let's say, corresponds loosely to a role, for simplicity's sake. The developer intent is to make it possible to "max out" a role before they add stuff. The developer intent is also to allow you to max out more than one role, but not all of them, before they add stuff.

Thus, the design choice dictates that each role takes 5 months to max out.

"But wait, Kaffis!" you say, "That means I can max out my character in 60 months, and so there's no tradeoffs involved. The only choice I make is in what order I take these always on bonuses!"

"Ah," I respond. "Except, when you've maxxed out two root branches and worked 2 months into a third, the first update comes out, adding 2 more root branches, and adding an additional 3 months of skills onto each of the others, so now each branch takes 8 months to max out. The 3 months of skills are a very small relative power increase over the first 5, since each skill takes longer and longer to accumulate as you go deeper into the skill tree. Now, 12 months in, we've extended the time to max to 112 months! Now, the "order" you got them in matters, because the first 12 months are still all you have, and you're even further from maxxing out your character than you started, because there are even more options."