From a tactical gamer, jaded by 'trendy' modern shooters - Page 15

Slide Surveyor · 2012-07-29, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by BlueSkies

If you aren't trying to win... what are you doing exactly?

Then chances are you're teamkilling, spamming chat/VoIP, griefing, etc..

OnexBigxHebrew · 2012-07-29, 08:48 PM

Fun is subjective. What you may think is cheesy, "pathetic" or overly competitive, I think is a blast. What I may think is dated and boring, you think is the only way to enjoy a game. The entire fact that fun is subjective just makes this thread inflammatory and divides the community even further.

Bottom line, the game has modern features and old features, and will have players from all walks of gaming, from roleplaying guilds to mlg players to 11 year olds with their parents' credit cards. The more people here keep making threads about "ohhhhh, this mentality makes you a 'bittervet'" or "oh, only codfags or bf kids look at things like that" will prevent anyone from getting their opinions taken seriously and just turn this forum to shit.

We're all guilty in one way or another, but the fact here is that the game is mostly finished, so rather than throwing fits about having to play in the presence of new demographics, let's just celebrate the fact that so many from all around are taking an interest in this potentially groundbreaking game.

Fun is subjective - so lets all try to have it in our own way without generalizing and hating others for doing the same.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-07-29, 08:57 PM

I dont remember who said it but I like this saying , "If you aint cheating then you arent trying hard enough".

Littleman · 2012-07-29, 09:29 PM

Hrmmm.... I'd have to say... a tactic is only cheap if it ruins the game for every body. This was pretty much what dropping generators in PS1 amounted to. People can say they're here to win, but if there's absolutely no contest in winning, then it's not satisfying, and it certainly wasn't fun.

Coincidentally, I honestly think the lower TTK's and more open lay out of everything will somewhat stifle the "cheap" tactics of PS1: 3rd person at the top of the stairs is gone, grenade launcher spam is likely costly, reaver kill whoring will be even more dangerous/difficult, etc. I'm sure there may be NEW "cheap" tricks people will figure out, but hopefully with all the customization we have available, someone will find a way to beat those tactics.

Deadeye · 2012-07-29, 10:13 PM

Went back today and played an hour of BF3 and, when it decided to work (still getting connection issues 8 months after release) and ya know what? It does feel a tad short.

I think Planetside 1's ttk is way too long and favors heavy assault weapons way too much but I think the game could stand to be a tad longer than BF3.

Bobby Shaftoe · 2012-07-29, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Disillusioned

without relying on crutches

Lol, I guess that's why 90% of them all have audio camp, surge and targetting, use HA/AV/REXO and sit in reavers 90% of their time outdoors?

opticalshadow · 2012-07-30, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Littleman

Hrmmm.... I'd have to say... a tactic is only cheap if it ruins the game for every body. This was pretty much what dropping generators in PS1 amounted to. People can say they're here to win, but if there's absolutely no contest in winning, then it's not satisfying, and it certainly wasn't fun.
.

dropping the gens didn ruin everyones fun, it pushed a weaknes in the enemy, and won the base. people like me, who wanted victory for my empire understood this. if i want a kill farm id fight at a tower.

Huntsab · 2012-07-30, 12:21 AM

There are people dropping gens at every base. I played my TR alt and hooked up with BRTD and omg was the most boring time in game I have ever had. Waiting in empty bases is not fun you saddo's.

SixShooter · 2012-07-30, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by OnexBigxHebrew

Fun is subjective. What you may think is cheesy, "pathetic" or overly competitive, I think is a blast. What I may think is dated and boring, you think is the only way to enjoy a game. The entire fact that fun is subjective just makes this thread inflammatory and divides the community even further.

Bottom line, the game has modern features and old features, and will have players from all walks of gaming, from roleplaying guilds to mlg players to 11 year olds with their parents' credit cards. The more people here keep making threads about "ohhhhh, this mentality makes you a 'bittervet'" or "oh, only codfags or bf kids look at things like that" will prevent anyone from getting their opinions taken seriously and just turn this forum to shit.

We're all guilty in one way or another, but the fact here is that the game is mostly finished, so rather than throwing fits about having to play in the presence of new demographics, let's just celebrate the fact that so many from all around are taking an interest in this potentially groundbreaking game.

Fun is subjective - so lets all try to have it in our own way without generalizing and hating others for doing the same.

Well said sir.

lawnmower · 2012-07-30, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by OnexBigxHebrew

a lot of players around here seem to wonder why whe still aren't iceskating around with a pinpoint reticul in a low-res 4x4 box.

dont act as if they are worse

Originally Posted by OnexBigxHebrew

Therefore, even though people seem to love it

i dont know what youre talking about, people seem to hate them

Originally Posted by wasdie

Well there is the argument of immersion vs. competition. Most people who complain about modern shooters want something more like Quake, Unreal Tounry, or Counter Stirke, where it's not about immersion but rather about 100% competition.

youve got it all wrong, they want something thats fun. something thats interresting, deep, with solid mechanics, and has a skill ceiling that starts bottoming out real fast

Originally Posted by Klockan

Counterstrike had way lower TTK than just about any modern shooter but is still one of the most skill based games there is. I'd bet the first time you play it you would go 1:10 or something like that.

thats because of other factors, lower ttk makes the skill difference between palyers smaller and lowers skill ceiling. i also doubt its one of the most skillful games there are

Originally Posted by Klockan

High TTK is noob friendly since then you always know what killed you

how is this even relevant to noobfriendliness?

Originally Posted by Broadside

On top of that, did you ever stop and think that maybe the developers like the new modern way to play FPS's?

why should we stop and think that? do we have any reason to?
yeah its kind of likely as theyre bad and that would help them compete, most probably think its hard to like even the best of games when youre getting crushed

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

It's not a case of "dragging it into"... They go hand in hand.

By definition, a sniper is someone who from a place of concealment, usually alone, or in support of a group not in his immediate vicinity, aims precise, targeted fire onto the enemy, achieving through precision what others achieve through volume.

It is irrelevant whether an individual is playing a "sniper class", using a "sniper rifle" or using a "pistol". The role IS.

Real world tactics and concepts apply even in a game of chess. That we are using guns AT ALL in this game is an influence of "real wars". That we have grenades AT ALL in this game is an influence of "real wars". That we have tanks, or aircraft, or machine guns, or RPGs, or combat medics... These are all concepts that come DIRECTLY FROM "real wars".

the role is whatever you make it to be. how real life works have zero relevance on how you should make your game

Fligsnurt · 2012-07-30, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Doxy

As right as OP may be, he said it himself, he is a Minority.
COD kids are a majority, thus they dictate the rules.
And no company in their right mind, will pick minority die hard fans over majority cash profits.

You sir have not had much experience with CCP (EVE) and BiS (TakeOnH and ArmA). But those companies are kind of a diamond in the rough in view of all current developing companies.

On a seperate more on topic note.

Things in my opinion and from pure observation that have and are ruining modern gaming are certain trends modern gaming devs are adopting. (I will use BF3 a lot for examples because it was a game that let me down greatly for what it adopted.)

1) Prioritizing stats. With this people are pressured to think that KDR, KPM, WLR, are what determines a "good" player. The pilot who keeps the enemies air assets grounded and harasses the ground assets enough to keep them on their toes isn't considered a better player then the guy who flies around and does nothing but go for kills by only engaging easy targets. This also skews my next point.

2) Optional Team-Play. Most games reward players for kill streaks and all around kills more so then playing a support role for their team. Though it is to some of us more refreshing and fullfilling to play a dedicated support role most games don't support this behavior by rewarding this play style equally to the shoot anything that moves players. You see support who just run around gunning everything from the hip in BF3 more then them setting up and overwatching their squad. I love to support my squad in bf3 by providing cover for their advance and giving them ammo supplies after engaging the enemy or taking the CP. But you don't see it often, in most games LMG classes are nothing but glorified assault class with excessively large magazines. Same goes for medics, the "downed" timer in BF3 is so short so that players can get back into the action faster which makes it hard for medics to be effective in any other way except for suicide revives. Which just pisses players off to no extent.

3) Simplistic Gun-play. This is an arguable point based on preference but if you don't need to stop firing to reacquire your target (IE. target is never hard to keep inside your sights while firing full auto). Then your gun play is to simple. The rewarding experience from learning the kick / control of a weapon that you use is a better feeling then being able to pick up any random weapon and being decently good with it. This is more prevalent in CoD its not quite as bad in BF3 as their is a lot of control flavor between weapons but not enough to keep it from being annoying. Where CoD, most weapons (the most commonly used weapons in most games can be accused of this. IE the M16A3 in BF3) you can just aim and hold fire and you don't have to really try much to get the kill other then keep your crosshairs relative to the guy sprinting around.

4) Consolization of PC releases. This is a very heated topic but the only reason I list this is because most developers make their game for console then port it to pc with little or no optimization. Games like Borderlands and Just Cause 2 are extremely guilty of this, yes they are fun but Ill be damned if they aren't frustrating in the controls department. If you feel that a game is better off being played with a console controller hooked up to your pc then the mouse + keyboard combo it has failed in this department. Auto mouse smoothing, clunky movement controls, limited key binding options are all a curse that comes with this lazy / time cutting issue. Limiting control options on PC with the excuse that "its only fair that consoles and PCs are on the same playing field." is nothing but a BS excuse for the developers not wanting to put in the extra effort to work on a PC version. Yes its more complicated due to the mix and match hardware configs in the PC genre where consoles its the same stuff over and over. But its still lazy and its still a let down to those who would rather play on PC. This is also emphasized by a company that responds that if your having a problem its your hardware even though nothing they did was designed to work correctly for anything but your OS.

These are my observations and speculations. Comment freely and let me know if you disagree or agree. If you disagree with any point I would love to see your reasons as I love to have in depth discussions especially if I am missing something and / or I am completely wrong.

TL'DR? Please Don't bother responding if you aren't going to read my post in full it wont benefit this thread, yourself, or myself.

Thank you for your time.

Edit: Also TTK is a differential of two seperate "skill sets" faster TTK allows the twitch gamer to have the advantage. Higher TTK allows for players who have better control of weapons and overall better "tracking" skills to be on an advantage.

Xenostalker · 2012-07-30, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by OnexBigxHebrew

Fun is subjective. What you may think is cheesy, "pathetic" or overly competitive, I think is a blast. What I may think is dated and boring, you think is the only way to enjoy a game. The entire fact that fun is subjective just makes this thread inflammatory and divides the community even further.

Bottom line, the game has modern features and old features, and will have players from all walks of gaming, from roleplaying guilds to mlg players to 11 year olds with their parents' credit cards. The more people here keep making threads about "ohhhhh, this mentality makes you a 'bittervet'" or "oh, only codfags or bf kids look at things like that" will prevent anyone from getting their opinions taken seriously and just turn this forum to shit.

We're all guilty in one way or another, but the fact here is that the game is mostly finished, so rather than throwing fits about having to play in the presence of new demographics, let's just celebrate the fact that so many from all around are taking an interest in this potentially groundbreaking game.

Fun is subjective - so lets all try to have it in our own way without generalizing and hating others for doing the same.

Yes.

snaffe · 2012-07-30, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by OnexBigxHebrew

Fun is subjective. What you may think is cheesy, "pathetic" or overly competitive, I think is a blast. What I may think is dated and boring, you think is the only way to enjoy a game. The entire fact that fun is subjective just makes this thread inflammatory and divides the community even further.

Bottom line, the game has modern features and old features, and will have players from all walks of gaming, from roleplaying guilds to mlg players to 11 year olds with their parents' credit cards. The more people here keep making threads about "ohhhhh, this mentality makes you a 'bittervet'" or "oh, only codfags or bf kids look at things like that" will prevent anyone from getting their opinions taken seriously and just turn this forum to shit.

We're all guilty in one way or another, but the fact here is that the game is mostly finished, so rather than throwing fits about having to play in the presence of new demographics, let's just celebrate the fact that so many from all around are taking an interest in this potentially groundbreaking game.

Fun is subjective - so lets all try to have it in our own way without generalizing and hating others for doing the same.

Amen. I still want to shoot you in the face, mind. (unless you are sexy purple).

psychosiszz · 2012-07-30, 04:55 AM

Kill Zone 2 was never a good game.

Piper · 2012-07-30, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by lawnmower

how is this even relevant to noobfriendliness?

Because the higher the TTK the longer a player has to reflect on the manner of their demise. To play "what if". What if I had done X or countered with Y, would I have made it out the other side of the engagement.

Too short a TTK, wham-bam-thankyou-maam and the perception might be that whatever the new player might have tried nothing would have changed the situation, frustration creeps in and they are an ex-new player before they know it.

On topic of the OP, there is no reason why you can't multi-layer the complexity of a game like PS2, PS1 did it fine after all. For those that didn't want complex there was instant action (when it worked) and a big brainless cluster fudge of a zerg fight to go fragging in and nothing more.

For those that wanted complexity you could find it, and more importantly create it for yourself. For those of us (I include myself) who prefer the later it really does need to be an option in game for the longevity of it in terms of playerbase. I worry that there is little to no "global" game in PS2 from what I've seen so far.

In short, game design to only the lowest common denominator (like so much creative design post millennium) should be avoided!