The Issue of the 10%-20% Power Differentiation

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by kaffis

The only time there is no tradeoff, and it's only "the order in which you acquire them," is when you're able to acquire them all.

With time-based unlocks, and the intention to expand skill trees out as the game progresses, this is a silly assumption.

Here, let me work this out for you.

The 3-year plan says "major updates every 12 months."

The initial release includes 12 root skill tree branches. Each branch, let's say, corresponds loosely to a role, for simplicity's sake. The developer intent is to make it possible to "max out" a role before they add stuff. The developer intent is also to allow you to max out more than one role, but not all of them, before they add stuff.

Thus, the design choice dictates that each role takes 5 months to max out.

"But wait, Kaffis!" you say, "That means I can max out my character in 60 months, and so there's no tradeoffs involved. The only choice I make is in what order I take these always on bonuses!"

"Ah," I respond. "Except, when you've maxxed out two root branches and worked 2 months into a third, the first update comes out, adding 2 more root branches, and adding an additional 3 months of skills onto each of the others, so now each branch takes 8 months to max out. The 3 months of skills are a very small relative power increase over the first 5, since each skill takes longer and longer to accumulate as you go deeper into the skill tree. Now, 12 months in, we've extended the time to max to 112 months! Now, the "order" you got them in matters, because the first 12 months are still all you have, and you're even further from maxxing out your character than you started, because there are even more options."

I'm not sure this is the type of system I'd like to see in an MMOFPS. Its an MMOFPS, not a grind. I shouldn't have to wait 112 months to be able to max out my character. The game should not be about maxing characters out, and honestly if their idea of additional content is adding more skills that take even longer to unlock then thats just a really bad design. The focus should be on gameplay, freshness of the battles, and the overall way the mechanics of the game work, not on time-grinding indefinitely without ever having a hope of maxing out, for small power advantages that mean next to nothing.

[Senyu]

Well hopefully included with the content are more armor/vehicle/weapon/base choices as well as changing enviorments to keep it a little fresh

[legendary]

Power perks are a bad idea purely due to the fact they cheapen the taste of victory. Side note, any minor power boost would be an experience and personal kill count stat buff. A vets round shouldn’t be worth any more in a hail of bullets than an n00bs.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

The focus should be on gameplay, freshness of the battles, and the overall way the mechanics of the game work, not on time-grinding indefinitely without ever having a hope of maxing out, for small power advantages that mean next to nothing.

Or perhaps, instead of in PS1 where you have "time-grinding indefinitely without ever having a hope of maxing out" for merits that do nothing at all, now that "grinding" will give you minor skill bonuses that at least do a little something.

People seem to think this is a totally new idea, when in fact it is just fleshing out principles already established in PS1. (more BR = more power; minor skills instead of merits) Plus, this game is still going to be a shooter so any minor adjustments of stats will always be second to the skill of the player.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Or perhaps, instead of in PS1 where you have "time-grinding indefinitely without ever having a hope of maxing out" for merits that do nothing at all, now that "grinding" will give you minor skill bonuses that at least do a little something.

This is incorrect. There was no indefinite grinding in Planetside.

Giving out bonus to those who play the game longer is pretty lame, and as a poster said above it cheapens battles. But if such a system goes in veterans will have no choice but to do it because not doing it means you're at a disadvantage. Its not cool for someone to have an artificial edge on you just because they played the game longer - they will already have the edge of experience and familiarity. There is no need to compound that.

People seem to think this is a totally new idea, when in fact it is just fleshing out principles already established in PS1. (more BR = more power; minor skills instead of merits) Plus, this game is still going to be a shooter so any minor adjustments of stats will always be second to the skill of the player.

This is incorrect. More BR = More options in PS1. You can argue that options is a form of power but it is one thing to give you access to equipment and quite another to improve its performance. This is a very significant difference.

You also had built-in tradeoffs in PS1. Your cert points were limited so you coudln't have everything simultaneously. BR allowed you to have more, but it didn't make the things you had any more effective. There was no artificial differential between say a gauss in the hands of a BR 1 vs a gauss in the hands of a BR 20. That was an important and very awesome part of planetside and judging from this thread and the poll more than a few people are concerned that adding in power advancement is the wrong direction for that system.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is incorrect. There was no indefinite grinding in Planetside.

This is incorrect. More BR = More options in PS1. You can argue that options is a form of power but it is one thing to give you access to equipment and quite another to improve its performance. This is a very significant difference.

Actually both statements I made were correct and accurate.

1) Maybe you were one of the very few people who got maxed out on all the merits, but for the rest of the world, it is an infinite grind. Now instead of grinding for merits, you'll be grinding for minor skill bonuses that arn't game-changing but help sharpen your edge.

2) More BR = more versatile = more powerful. For example, if you are able to have HA, Engie, Med, and fly a Mosq ALL at the very same time, I don't see how you can even begin to argue that doesn't make you more powerful than a BR5 player.

In both cases, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

[NewSith]

I wonder why this thread keeps on living.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Actually both statements I made were correct and accurate.

1) Maybe you were one of the very few people who got maxed out on all the merits, but for the rest of the world, it is an infinite grind. Now instead of grinding for merits, you'll be grinding for minor skill bonuses that arn't game-changing but help sharpen your edge.

2) More BR = more versatile = more powerful. For example, if you are able to have HA, Engie, Med, and fly a Mosq ALL at the very same time, I don't see how you can even begin to argue that doesn't make you more powerful than a BR5 player.

In both cases, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

1) Comparing merits to time based skill unlocks is not an accurate comparison by any means. Merits are cosmetic unlocks that you get for achieving certain benchmarks via certain play styles. You don't "grind" merits. I have never spoken to a PlanetSide player that felt like merits were a "grind". Instead you usually are surprised to see a qualification for one come up.

Merits and skills are completely separate concepts. I imagine PlanetSide 2 will have merits in much the same way as PlanetSide 1.

2) Exactly. A BR20 player is more powerful and versatile than a BR1. He doesn't need an extra 20% to widen the gap. So therefore I don't even see how you can begin to argue you still need a 20% power advancement for vets.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

2) Exactly. A BR20 player is more powerful and versatile than a BR1.

Jack Sparrow: "Ah-ha! So, we've established my proposal as sound in principle. Now, we're just haggling over price."

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

2) Exactly. A BR20 player is more powerful and versatile than a BR1. He doesn't need an extra 20% to widen the gap. So therefore I don't even see how you can begin to argue you still need a 20% power advancement for vets.

Well, I suppose, there's just one perspective everyone's missing...

How about while you're a newbie, you don't just DO EVERYTHING. You decide what suits you best, and at what you can do better, you improve.

And while you're a vet, you've chosen your style. And you want it to pay off.

Don't forget that their ultimate purpose is to create a game, based MORE on teamwork, than on uber-soldiering.
That means that they somehow have to "benefit" a player's choice. To some degree even force it. That's when "power difference" comes handy. You can give this difference, but on certain conditions. Like: "If you want to be cool with ****, you have to train a skill for it. But with a skill for ****, you'll have to temporarily forget about learning *** and ***** skills."
So you can gradually increase your overall strength, or drag yourself into learning something separate, in shorter period of time.

That's the way see it.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Actually both statements I made were correct and accurate.

1) Maybe you were one of the very few people who got maxed out on all the merits, but for the rest of the world, it is an infinite grind. Now instead of grinding for merits, you'll be grinding for minor skill bonuses that arn't game-changing but help sharpen your edge.

2) More BR = more versatile = more powerful. For example, if you are able to have HA, Engie, Med, and fly a Mosq ALL at the very same time, I don't see how you can even begin to argue that doesn't make you more powerful than a BR5 player.

In both cases, a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Since you failed to read it the first time...

You can argue that options is a form of power but it is one thing to give you access to equipment and quite another to improve its performance.

[Furret]

Malorn, are you using a different font than everyone else? I cant seem to read what you're writing, it may be too small.

So has anyone thought about using certification points for these weapon upgrades?

Lets say I'm a jackhammer whore, through and through, and all I do is drive on my ATV to the fight and unload on the enemy.

ATV + REXO + Med Assault + Heavy Assault is only 10 certs, I have that many at BR5.

What if this player were to spend a cert point on an extra barrel for his jackhammer, and then perhaps two for an enhanced chamber system for higher bullet penetration.

If you meet him in a tower, you'll be in trouble, but that's the limit of his power.

Power Differentiation could be determined by how many certs you dump into that role, or whatever this class system bullshit is about (For the record, I'm against it and I much prefer the PS1 certification system).

This way a veteran would have potentially more weapon upgrades, but a new soldier could still cert a couple of upgrades.

And if anyone complains that it might take too long to get enough certs to be effective, you can get to BR 5 practically just doing the training missions, driving all the vehicles, and picking up all the guns.

These cert costs could be balanced out, but it could work.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Since you failed to read it the first time...

Well, I don't know how to read, so I'd appreciate a little more compassion. OK, I'm kidding, but I did read that sentence, even in the normal font size, I just disagree with your conclusion, and I explained why I disagree. It wasn't because I ignored what you said.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Furret

Malorn, are you using a different font than everyone else? I cant seem to read what you're writing, it may be too small.

So has anyone thought about using certification points for these weapon upgrades?

Lets say I'm a jackhammer whore, through and through, and all I do is drive on my ATV to the fight and unload on the enemy.

ATV + REXO + Med Assault + Heavy Assault is only 10 certs, I have that many at BR5.

What if this player were to spend a cert point on an extra barrel for his jackhammer, and then perhaps two for an enhanced chamber system for higher bullet penetration.

If you meet him in a tower, you'll be in trouble, but that's the limit of his power.

Power Differentiation could be determined by how many certs you dump into that role, or whatever this class system bullshit is about (For the record, I'm against it and I much prefer the PS1 certification system).

This way a veteran would have potentially more weapon upgrades, but a new soldier could still cert a couple of upgrades.

And if anyone complains that it might take too long to get enough certs to be effective, you can get to BR 5 practically just doing the training missions, driving all the vehicles, and picking up all the guns.

These cert costs could be balanced out, but it could work.

@Raymac - I've been spouting that for awhile now. I didn't argue that a BR20 was not more "naturally" powerful than a BR1. We haven't established your "proposal".

@NewSith If I specialize in something, my reward for specializing in it should be that I know what I'm doing and I'm better than a noob at it because I've actually played the game longer, not because I specialized and unlocked some skill that makes me more powerful.

@Furret This would work except the issue is that the barrel for the jackhammer (as you mentioned) would only be available to a BR20 vet since its unlocked further down the skill tree that required BR20 to start training. So a newb would not be able to cert the same barrel. I'm all with you, PS1 cert system ftw.

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

@NewSith If I specialize in something, my reward for specializing in it should be that I know what I'm doing and I'm better than a noob at it because I've actually played the game longer, not because I specialized and unlocked some skill that makes me more powerful.

That's the trick. Any modern FPS work like that. And PS is aimed to be modern.

Try to get it right - I'm all for br25, and cert system, and stuff... But... That's not going to happen, and that's already written in stone. Sadly class system, as in "Pre-defined Equipment", does NOT work with our cert system.