Religion

[NivexQ]

Traak, you wouldn't happen to live in Topeka, Kansas, would you?

[Effective]

Got to love... Bible Contradictions!

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Quovatis

Wow, Westboro IS a good description. Not even worth responding to.

I know. I gotta give Effective credit for that, that was entirely spot-on and appropriate.

[Warborn]

Maybe it's just a coincidence that the times we're living in are simultaneously the least religious in human history, and the most peaceful and least violent.

Anyway, the funny thing about religion is that it's really only ever been a mask in the majority of cases. People do what they do for the same reasons they've always done things: Self-interest. Sometimes they can use religion as justification for it (as is the case with religious wars, or the persecution or enslavement of people judged inferior by society at the time), but it's pretty obviously the case that being religious does nothing to improve the moral character of people. You don't become a good person by being religious. And that, I think, is the real indictment. If the holy words written or inspired by a god can't even cause people to behave any better than they would without those words known to them, then what good are those words? What good is religion if it does nothing to make people behave better?

To say we derive our morals from any particular religion is obviously wrong and an incredibly stupid proposition given how easy it is to disprove, but the real blow against its veracity is the fact that it can't even convince the people who claim to believe in it that following the good parts is an idea worth getting behind.

[Quovatis]

There we go again, atheists don't hate god. How can you hate something that you don't believe exists? And most atheists know more about the bible and have read more of it than most practicing Christians. That's a fact. Anyway, I looked up several of those, and they all seem true to me...not made up. Are you really arguing that the bible says slavery is wrong? Because there are many many verses that say it's fine.

BTW- did you look up what Scientology is yet? LOL Bet you were surprised.

[Warborn]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...18&version=KJV

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Emphasis is mine, but Moses was the guy that God saw fit to impart his Ten Commandments unto, and here he is commanding the genocide and sexual slavery of the Midianites. All the men are killed, all the women who aren't virgins are killed, all the male children are killed, but the virgin women and children are given to his soldiers as reward for a job well done.

So in one short passage we have: Genocide, rape, misogyny, sexual slavery of women, and sexual slavery of children.

[Warborn]

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

It's just interpretation brother... But I understand where you're coming from.

Hey, don't look at me, I didn't write the thing. You need to understand where the Bible is coming from. And cousin, let me tell you, that shit is hardcore. And it wasn't just the Old Testament, either.

[Quovatis]

Yeah, if you actually look into the history of how the new testament came together, it's quite obvious it was politically motivated more than religiously.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

.................................................. .................................................. ...............................................did Did you actually pick a bible up and read? Every single one of those are wrong.

You CAN look at the bible and make something come from a sentence if you don't read the entire sentence. But that picture was made by someone who hates God so much, he had to make shit up. Literally make it up.

I have read the bible, it's the primary reason I'm an atheist.
From the King James Bible.

Leviticus 11:7
and the swine, though he divide the hoof and is cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud, he is unclean to you

Leviticus 11:9-12
9"`These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you.
11They shall be even an abomination unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall hold their carcasses in abomination.
12Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 19:19
19"`Ye shall keep My statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle breed with a diverse kind. Thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed; neither shall a garment mingled with linen and wool come upon thee.

Leviticus 19:27
27Ye shall not round off the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.


Exodus 21:7
7"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28"If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found,

29then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Proverbs 22:15
15Foolishness is bound into the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

2 John 1:10
10If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed

1 Timothy 2:12
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

That's only some of the examples the "Morality" the bible teaches.

[Elude]

Originally Posted by Traak

You don't become a puppet for not breaking rules. So, you are a helpless puppet when you are in an airplane, and you DON'T run around killing everyone in the plane with a knife? The rules say you shouldn't. Are you a mindless slave, a puppet of the evil, pernicious airline industry because you DON'T engage in something that harms others?

Morals are bad? So, for example, you think it is the height of enlightenment and freedom for someone to demonstrate their contempt for morals such as "don't murder" and "don't steal" by burning down your house with you in it after stealing all that you have in it?

Or are morals only bad when they prevent YOU from sinning? They are good if they keep others from doing evil to you, but not if they control your behavior in any way?

People who are bound by rules have less free will than those who are not bound by rules, that's a fact.

I don't look at morals as something to prevent you from sinning because sin itself is a matter of perspective.

[Firefly]

Everyone has the same amount of free will. The "rules" by which we are "bound" is a moral code by which we (should) try to live. Having those rules doesn't lessen our free will, it merely lessens the amount of actions we can take.

[Warborn]

Plus, lets be fair, it isn't really a moral code any of us are bound by. We simply are disinclined toward taking certain actions under most circumstances. But, that moral code can very easily be tossed out the window. I mean, census information regarding prison populations puts people who identify as Christian as being disproportionately over-represented in terms of incarceration.

Are those so-called Christians not aware of the tenets of their religion? They probably are. But, they also probably feel that you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes, and at the end of the day, it isn't Jesus who takes care of them or their families. Our moral codes in virtually every case only last as long as we get to sit at school or at work, posting about it on the Internet, with a budget in the black and a fridge full of food at a nice, safe home or apartment we're looking forward to getting back to.

[Firefly]

On occasion you'll find devout Christians (not the disgusting fraudulent Westboro types like Traak, but genuine devout Christians) whose sense of morality is kept intact despite adverse conditions. An example would be Alvin York (of Sergeant York fame), a hellraiser who became a born-again devout Christian... who was drafted for World War One and had a crisis of conscience, to the point of nearly becoming a conscientious objector. After talking to his minister (who, allegedly, was a pacifist), decided that it was his duty to defend the freedoms of people overseas.

[KernolKlusterFk]

Whether your christian muslim or whatever, it should not play into politics in any form or way, this is what seperation of church and state means. So people like Sanatorum looking like a crusaider for Catholics is actually making himself look more un-american according to the principles this country was created upon. The only problem is the issue of abortion, but everything else should have religion kept out of it.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by KernolKlusterFk

The only problem is the issue of abortion, but everything else should have religion kept out of it.

Er?

Why shouldn't religion be kept out of that, too?