Don't dumb down PS2

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Not to mention how quickly a tank dies when there are 6+ people shooting it with AV guns, which will rarely be a big problem in even a BF scale game, but is a common problem in a Planetside sized game.

Absolutely

Read my post, here the frontline will be over the entire map instead between each hex.

That is not a front line, that is Capture The Flag.

That map looks pretty but it does not constitute a front line. In Capture The Flag there are a series of circles where the center is the flag, and the circle is the front line. At least with PS1 between the tower and the base, where the 2 circles intersected that constituted a front line.

You would need at least 100,000 players on a server playing simultaneously for there to be a strategic front line with the size of that map.

[Absentis]

I didn't realize this was a BF3 forum.

While I can agree that complexity is good, nothing should be overly complicated to keep population levels up. There has to be simplified factors to do this, so different crowds will be more attracted for the game to have acceptable population levels to play the game in the first place.

As for the Galaxy spawn complaints, I don't see why it would be any harder to destroy since I see far more people wanting to be pilots instead of ground-based combat. Not to mention there will be plenty of AA. The Galaxy must land before being a spawn point, so it is extremely vulnerable but opens up flanks if it can successfully land which nullifies your argument of there being less tactical options. It's just a matter of being able to breach defenses, look for lightly guarded areas, or coming up with new ways to attack a position.

[Traingye]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

It's easy to guess what will happen. People will fly over enemy territory and deploy them everywhere. In front, in back, to the left, to the right of an enemy base. And each flight will have an equal probability of success unlike the AMS system where it was actually harder to deploy on the flanks or the rear of an enemy base. There will be no flank, there will be no rear, there will be no forward area, there will just be a random collection of skirmishes here and there radiating out in a circle from the target base.

I disagree. I think you will see many of them deployed but not all over the place. I believe it to be too difficult to land one and deploy it in a certain area unless your empire already has strong presence in that area. Similar in PS1 where you really couldn't deploy an AMS in a courtyard unless your empire already had control of it. My experience in PS1 was that AMS's were deployed after your empire had control of an area, most often in a courtyard or the outside of a tower. Rarely were they deployed without support and if they were, they would be killed rather quickly. I think Galaxies will be deployed in a similar fashion.

Keep in mind here that Galaxies are significantly larger than AMS's. AMS can hide in trees and be cloaked, which a Galaxy could never do. So even if one does get deployed I think it would get destroyed rather quickly.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

In PS1 the front line was between the tower and the enemy town.

It depends on what you consider 'the front line' to be I suppose. I would considered the tower to be part of the overall siege of the base.

[Rico Suave]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

It's easy to guess what will happen. People will fly over enemy territory and deploy them everywhere. In front, in back, to the left, to the right of an enemy base. And each flight will have an equal probability of success unlike the AMS system where it was actually harder to deploy on the flanks or the rear of an enemy base. There will be no flank, there will be no rear, there will be no forward area, there will just be a random collection of skirmishes here and there radiating out in a circle from the target base.

In PS1 the front line was between the tower and the enemy town.

Wait, wait, wait. "The will just be a random collection of skirmishes here and there radiating out in a circle from the target base". Isn't that kind of like a localized front line? A siege of a base? Stalingrad, Lenningrad, Khe Sanh, Tobruk etc etc. I'm sure that felt like (or was) the frontline to those involved.

And if they fly over enemy territory to deploy in the rear, that means they had to fly over the front right? Which means they landed in the rear? It seems that you would like a continuous front akin to more traditional warfare (WWI, WWII) and would have to work to break the line. But with the size of the map and even with 2000 players on each, there will be holes everywhere in the front, it just is not feasible. Besides, airborne operations have been used to further the front or to break it open (D-Day, Operation Market Garden) so these tactics will be feasible with the Galaxies and Liberators.

Again, this is all subject to beta which we are all patiently waiting for, and at the end of the day if you don't want the other side to be conducting air ops, you better have air superiority.

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by Rico Suave

Wait, wait, wait. "The will just be a random collection of skirmishes here and there radiating out in a circle from the target base". Isn't that kind of like a localized front line? A siege of a base? Stalingrad, Lenningrad, Khe Sanh, Tobruk etc etc. I'm sure that felt like (or was) the frontline to those involved.

They all had a front, flanks, and a rear. When they were encircled the battle was over.

And if they fly over enemy territory to deploy in the rear, that means they had to fly over the front right? Which means they landed in the rear?

Unless there's 100,000 players on the server manning every part of the invisible front line the map shows, every 50 meters.

It seems that you would like a continuous front akin to more traditional warfare (WWI, WWII) and would have to work to break the line. But with the size of the map and even with 2000 players on each, there will be holes everywhere in the front, it just is not feasible. Besides, airborne operations have been used to further the front or to break it open (D-Day, Operation Market Garden) so these tactics will be feasible with the Galaxies and Liberators.

Again, this is all subject to beta which we are all patiently waiting for, and at the end of the day if you don't want the other side to be conducting air ops, you better have air superiority.

I'm talking smaller scale, not the entire map which would be impossible to maintain a front without 100,000 players on a single server.

Can anyone say "Simulcap"? Bet you guys $10 Sturmgrenadiers is gonna roll on in here when the game releases and brag about their Simulcapping skills. hehe.

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

You would need at least 100,000 players on a server playing simultaneously for there to be a strategic front line with the size of that map.

There wont be firefights everywhere across the borders but how did you plan to fly in unnoticed with the large playercounts and the long visual ranges? Also 100,000 over 8km would be almost a medieval army, not a modern army. Higher lethality and longer visual/firing range means that you spread out more. Also the front is as I said 8km, which is 8000 meters, if you have 100 people spread out over those it is once every 80 meters. Since you can only build vehicles in your own territory and galaxies have even more restrictions it is fairly safe to say that they wont come from any other direction than the opponents territory.

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by Traingye

I disagree. I think you will see many of them deployed but not all over the place. I believe it to be too difficult to land one and deploy it in a certain area unless your empire already has strong presence in that area. Similar in PS1 where you really couldn't deploy an AMS in a courtyard unless your empire already had control of it.

There aren't enough players to control anything but the courtyard, the flying AMS'ses will have no problem deploying anywhere but in the middle of an enemy base I'm sure.

My experience in PS1 was that AMS's were deployed after your empire had control of an area, most often in a courtyard or the outside of a tower. Rarely were they deployed without support and if they were, they would be killed rather quickly. I think Galaxies will be deployed in a similar fashion.

Keep in mind here that Galaxies are significantly larger than AMS's. AMS can hide in trees and be cloaked, which a Galaxy could never do. So even if one does get deployed I think it would get destroyed rather quickly.



It depends on what you consider 'the front line' to be I suppose. I would considered the tower to be part of the overall siege of the base.

Something with a front, a left flank, a right flank, and a rear. It doesn't have to be a perfectly straight line.

Originally Posted by Klockan

There wont be firefights everywhere across the borders but how did you plan to fly in unnoticed with the large playercounts and the long visual ranges? Also 100,000 over 8km would be almost a medieval army, not a modern army. Higher lethality and longer visual/firing range means that you spread out more.

Very easily. And from what I read it sounds like it will have more hitpoints than 10 bang-buses so it doesn't matter if they are spotted anyways.

And if they don't have that many hitpoints than players will complain that THEIR ONLY SPAWN POINT keeps getting destroyed.

[Traingye]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

There aren't enough players to control anything but the courtyard, the flying AMS'ses will have no problem deploying anywhere but in the middle of an enemy base I'm sure.

If an empire only has control of the courtyard then the base has already been put in siege. Deploying a Galaxy outside the base would still be behind the attacking empire's lines at this point.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Something with a front, a left flank, a right flank, and a rear. It doesn't have to be a perfectly straight line.

So a fight going on at the front of the base you consider to be a front line?

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Very easily. And from what I read it sounds like it will have more hitpoints than 10 bang-buses so it doesn't matter if they are spotted anyways.

And if they don't have that many hitpoints than players will complain that THEIR ONLY SPAWN POINT keeps getting destroyed.

Can you please elaborate more than just 'Very easily'? They are massive how do you expect to deploy one in a relevant position unnoticed?

I've watched a fair amount of interviews with the dev team and having plenty of spawn points available appears to be a focus of theirs so I doubt people will complain about that.

[Rico Suave]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

They all had a front, flanks, and a rear. When they were encircled the battle was over.

What's this "When they were encircled the battle was over"? I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. Do you not know the battle of Stalingrad, Khe Sanh, Lenningrad, any other siege throughout history or even the lost battalion (WWI)? They were all surrounded but they didn't just simply go "oh darn boys, we're surrounded, time to surrender". The attacker sometimes won, the defender sometimes won.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Unless there's 100,000 players on the server manning every part of the invisible front line the map shows, every 50 meters.

In practical sense because of the map size and the player count the front line won't be as well defined, unless you want to simply use the overall map and where the bordering hexes are.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

I'm talking smaller scale, not the entire map which would be impossible to maintain a front without 100,000 players on a single server.

So why are you mad that there seems to not be a front. There will be people meeting at those imaginary points on the circles between base A and base B, but now there is another option to avoid the front and conduct assaults at the rear. And I wouldn't even call the meeting a front, it's more a skirmish. If I were to meet someone 1 v 1, I could call that a front, because I could flank him and kill him and extend my "front". Again, IMHO, the map will be to big to center fights anywhere else except facilities large and small, but that's what beta is for.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Can anyone say "Simulcap"? Bet you guys $10 Sturmgrenadiers is gonna roll on in here when the game releases and brag about their Simulcapping skills. hehe.

Tactics, they are a bitch.

[NoDachi]

Why are you still feeding him?

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

There aren't enough players to control anything but the courtyard, the flying AMS'ses will have no problem deploying anywhere but in the middle of an enemy base I'm sure.



Something with a front, a left flank, a right flank, and a rear. It doesn't have to be a perfectly straight line.



Very easily. And from what I read it sounds like it will have more hitpoints than 10 bang-buses so it doesn't matter if they are spotted anyways.

And if they don't have that many hitpoints than players will complain that THEIR ONLY SPAWN POINT keeps getting destroyed.

You base way too much from the demo footage. That was chaos, it wont be anything at all like that on the live servers. Why? Mostly because all 3 factions will almost never be at the same location with roughly the same amount of forces like that, also they wont all have unconquerable super spawn locations really close to the base that can spawn any kind of vehicle. Lastly the density of players in that territory was lower than the average density of players at the front would be if we had 2000 players on the server with all territories unlocked. If you think one side could sneak a galaxy past that then you are ridiculously retarded.

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by Rico Suave

What's this "When they were encircled the battle was over"? I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. Do you not know the battle of Stalingrad, Khe Sanh, Lenningrad, any other siege throughout history or even the lost battalion (WWI)? They were all surrounded but they didn't just simply go "oh darn boys, we're surrounded, time to surrender". The attacker sometimes won, the defender sometimes won.

There's no need to go History Buff, I'm interested in what is fun, not what is lame.

In practical sense because of the map size and the player count the front line won't be as well defined, unless you want to simply use the overall map and where the bordering hexes are.

Those hexes mean squat, the only thing important is the Capture Point.

So why are you mad that there seems to not be a front. There will be people meeting at those imaginary points on the circles between base A and base B, but now there is another option to avoid the front and conduct assaults at the rear. And I wouldn't even call the meeting a front, it's more a skirmish. If I were to meet someone 1 v 1, I could call that a front, because I could flank him and kill him and extend my "front". Again, IMHO, the map will be to big to center fights anywhere else except facilities large and small, but that's what beta is for.

Ugh, that's not how players behave. It doesn't matter what the hexes look like, that's not a front it is a pretty picture.

Tactics, they are a bitch.

Behind the line caps will be nerfed into uselessness the first time a squad simulcaps 10 hexes. Oh where oh where have the Sturmgrenadiers gone, oh where oh where can they be?

Bet you $10.

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Behind the line caps will be nerfed into uselessness the first time a squad simulcaps 10 hexes. Oh where oh where have the Sturmgrenadiers gone, oh where oh where can they be?

Bet you $10.

That will never happen due to the half an hour it takes to cap the base, the minutes it take for the defenders to stop the cap attempt and the fact that you can't stop them from respawning at the base while they can stop you from respawning by killing your galaxy. If they take just one of the 3-5 locations and holds that for a few minutes you lost. That's what we learned from the interviews. You might cap one or two, but never ten.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Those hexes mean squat, the only thing important is the Capture Point.

The hexes contains capture points though. The large bases takes up more than one hex and the towers take up 1 hex, but there is a capture point fairly close to each hex.

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by Klockan

You base way too much from the demo footage. That was chaos, it wont be anything at all like that on the live servers. Why? Mostly because all 3 factions will almost never be at the same location with roughly the same amount of forces like that, also they wont all have unconquerable super spawn locations really close to the base that can spawn any kind of vehicle. Lastly the density of players in that territory was lower than the average density of players at the front would be if we had 2000 players on the server with all territories unlocked. If you think one side could sneak a galaxy past that then you are ridiculously retarded.

Typical player behavior:

90% of the players will gravitate to the biggest battle, cause big=cool

The other 10% will fly galaxies 2+ hexes around the battle, cause nobody will be looking, and pretty much park them everywhere. Ergo, there will be no frontline.

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Typical player behavior:

90% of the players will gravitate to the biggest battle, cause big=cool

The other 10% will fly galaxies 2+ hexes around the battle, cause nobody will be looking, and pretty much park them everywhere. Ergo, there will be no frontline.

You cant be 2 hexes away from the battles since there is at least one capture point in a neighboring hex. Sometimes two capturable things lies right next to each other.