Gameplay: Outfit Air Cruisers Redux - Page 17

Baneblade · 2012-08-15, 09:58 AM

I remain cautiously optimistic about that. PlanetSide is too fluid for such a static oriented idea. Outfit generally won't want to invest in a base that they sill lose as soon as they log out.

berzerkerking · 2012-08-16, 02:04 PM

/bump

Gugabalog · 2012-08-16, 02:33 PM

I could see outfit bases being their own individual zones, not being an open world phenomenon, maybe similar to the hall of heroes or whatever it was in Everquest.

Archonzero · 2012-08-17, 01:30 AM

I really like the idea, much more than ground bases. Orbital outfit based aerial ships, obviously they will/should require an enormous amount of resources just to build. As well a resource based system to maintain their active commission. The option of a variety of ship sizes/purpose is a nice addon to the concept. So as smaller outfits wouldn't really need/afford the use of the heavier ships and opt for a smaller role vessel as their signature outfit ship.

***DISCLAIMER, not my own concept art***

Designs by http://karanak.deviantart.com/

Outfit Air Carrier

Other Features
- compartmentalized interior layout? or simple.
- Could be as simple as command deck, logistics room, spawn/equipment room, Maybe a belly mounted drop pod room connecting to the Engine room. As well the exterior flight deck spawn/repair pads.
- Or something of a similar layout to the Titans from BF2142, although not that intricate given the scale of everything else. Something simple, but feasible for boarding actions for tactical take downs, of course gaining access to the interior would require a skilled hacker or foolish defenders opening the way during repelling actions.

Archonzero · 2012-08-17, 05:57 AM

Given the OP's original idea, an subsequent discussed follow ups are very well thought/discussed, the idea to limit their mark on the actual battlefield outside of logistical support is great.

These OACs system hardpoints should be target able, an have no more HP than say a light armored vehicle like a Lib, lightning or deliverer (perhaps less even). While OACs can have a definite logistical mobile support role, outright destroying one should take an immense amount of combined arms to take down, instead have target able sub systems/hardpoints, you can disable it's ability to defend itself as well fulfill it's support role. Forcing an OAC to withdraw from the frontline, limping back to a repair dock/station/area, perhaps with mobilized enemy air power preying on it for a kill opportunity...

OR this could bring in another Outfit vessel specific role designation.

A Combat Engineer Support Vessel or CESV.

A CESV would be Frigate/Corvette size/classification. Comparitively to the larger OAC ships it would be a much smaller ship, requiring a smaller manned crew. Keeping perhaps a few AA mounts, the majority of it's weapon hardpoints would be swapped out for NTU repair systems as well other support systems, such as counter measures to protect itself and other aircraft. These ship types would be focused more on heavy ablative armor plating rather than shields, as the shield power consumption requirements would be generating the NTU repair systems.

CESV's would act as a smaller mobile air repair vessel, or tethered to the larger carriers much akin to Pilot fish to a shark or whale.

Again the addition of another OAC faction vessel in close support proximity may very well have to weigh additional cost of resource consumption to facilitate the necessity of stacking vessels to help wedge success to a ground based frontline theatre. If something like that were ever required to balance out such an option.

Another role potential designation for the Outfit Frigate/Corvette class airship for smaller outfits or outfits specializing in support roles could be an AWACs style AA vessel.

Substituting weapon hardpoints for radar systems and positional intel for ground + air forces within it's radar systems range of visibility. Again minimal 3-4 mannable AA positions (Flak or 15-20mm faction specific armaments), upgradeable radar system hardpoints.
Radar system hardpoints
Type1 Doppler style sweeping radar
Type2 Doppler pulse radar
Type3 Phased array/Tachyon based (or other subsequent sci-fi theoried tech)

There could be any number of varying types, each type would have pro's and con's, with wider/shorter ranges, time delay updates, specific signature readings (air, ground, vehicle or personnel). Each radar hardpoint could be manned operated, allowing the operator to designate an prioritize targets in the field?

Gugabalog · 2012-08-17, 07:22 AM

I just had a really neat idea.

So by default OAC could be in it's own zone sort of like a guild hall for outfits, or it could goto a spaceish area where outfit ships could battle between themselves and over various orbital facilities that give faction wide or outfit wide benefits i.e. increased ammo capacity or accuracy.

Baneblade · 2012-08-17, 08:20 AM

Nice posts Archon

Originally Posted by Gugabalog

I just had a really neat idea.

So by default OAC could be in it's own zone sort of like a guild hall for outfits, or it could goto a spaceish area where outfit ships could battle between themselves and over various orbital facilities that give faction wide or outfit wide benefits i.e. increased ammo capacity or accuracy.

Not sure what you mean by its own zone.

Anyway, I'll be posting a third (ninth) rework of the OAC concept to include some of what has been suggested in this thread.

Gugabalog · 2012-08-17, 09:47 AM

I mean like it's own instanced area sort of like an isolated super minature continent that can only be accessed via Sanc or Safezone or something.

Idk, just something similar to guildhalls in EQ. And that these "Guild Halls" could be used as you intended in a "continent" designed to be used by them. I jsut don't see OAC working well within the existing framework of the continents, but still working well with the currentish game mechanics.

Baneblade · 2012-08-17, 10:23 AM

Naturally I disagree. And considering I bent over backward to make them backwards compatible with PS as we know it, I think we should at least examine the specifics about why they wouldn't work as opposed to defaulting to the alternative design automatically.

Everyone has plenty of ideas about what to do if it doesn't work the way I envision, but nobody seems to be able to pin point any specifics as to why it wouldn't. The original incarnation of the idea had a lot of people saying the engine wouldn't support such a vehicle. They were wrong of course. This idea was originally designed for PS1, so I would hope it would be just as viable in PS2.

Gugabalog · 2012-08-17, 01:07 PM

I don't currently have any concrete points regarding it but base my opinion on my experience with Titans from BF2142. It was fun but had to be centered entirely around the airships themselves. Somehow this doesn't seem right in a persistent world.

Baneblade · 2012-08-17, 01:16 PM

PlanetSide isn't centered around any particular style of war. Or at least the concept isn't. Adding airships it, wouldn't necessarily force the game to be about airships. They won't be all that commonplace and the vast majority of players will not be in outfits that are running one at any given time.

Gugabalog · 2012-08-17, 05:50 PM

Yea, the key is limiting the number of active airships. The thing about having them act as a defacto outfit hall is that it allows them to be taken out of service while not sacrificing them while giving them a true sense of possesion. Like each ship matters and is to be preserved and not thrown into the fray like an expensive toy to be run by the elite.

Baneblade · 2012-08-17, 06:15 PM

I like that, perhaps when they are 'parked', they can be 'guild halls'. But there is no free parking.

Talek Krell · 2012-08-17, 06:52 PM

You could probably characterise it as withdrawing to low orbit or out over the oceans. Somewhere to go when you don't need/aren't willing to risk the ship. I'm using a similar concept in my space ideas.

Archonzero · 2012-08-18, 07:51 AM

While recollecting to some early concept ideas that PS2 team had envisioned.. was to build a Massive Multiplayer Persistant First Person Shooter with SANDBOX elements to be added or built upon for later expansions. I can't say I know that this IS their plan, but it was something that was sort of hedged around. There was an interview/article, I can't recollect with whom very early on, before we had even any art/footage. The interviewer brought up PS2 in light of CCPs Dust514/EvE to the discussion an what was lightly hinted at was a reversal to CCCP's approach to sandbox persistant MMO game. Where early concept to the PS2's team was thinking the other way around with their remake of PS MMOFPS franchise, by expanding out from the ground up.

So PS2, starts with a ground war.. if the game holds steady, showing promise through a loyal fanbase an potential playerbase growth, I could very easily see additional layers that could elevate the theater of war to above an beyond.

Which brings the idea of airships as a very logical step to platform from the ground to a low orbital theater, if a faction wants to compete for sub-orbital -> orbital -> interplanetary. The ground war still playing a very vital role, for maintaining faction required resources. Also its where outfits (an most likely ACO's, or Allied Collective Outfits) would earn their mark(s)s, so to speak.

In the ground theater, an OAC would act as an Outfits (or possibly Allied Collective of Outfits) command an control vessel, or small outfit only logistical support vessels (ex. AWACS/Aerial Resupply). Keeping them purely a logistical vessel, with perhaps a small footprint of effect on ground combat keeps them from being overpowered.

With any additional upper atmospheric layer(s), new optional hardware unlocks for OACs could allow the vessels to being refitted/retooled and repurposed for sub-orbital or even orbital operations. Which may or may not removing them from the theatre of low altitude/ground war? Operating as smaller mobile base carriers for the outfit (or Allied Collective Outfits) to launch sub-orbital/Orbital sorties, ALONGside other vessels.

The resources gained from ground control/dominance (resource accumulation) pave the way for outfits/factions to take the fight above and beyond, as well to maintain that fight. As we all know within our modern history, the advent of airpower came air superiority, which practically trumps ground dominance (with certain types of terrain playing a vital role denial) sub-orbital superiority > air-superiority, orbital > sub-orbital.. so on an so forth.

A Sub-Orbital theater would become a dogfighter's heaven or nightmare, where ace pilots would shine the most, as their dogfighting skills would have to compete not only against other pilots, but also large multi-gunned heavily armored/shielded airships as they push for faction dominance over the skies by securing sub-orbital stations, such as small Relay Stations or "Air Towers".

An the sub-orbital ground war would now be fought inside aerial version of Towers known as SATcom/Relay stations, or large multi-layered, sub-orbital stations/platforms. That would have a multi-capture hexagonal control systems. These stations would be much larger than their ground counterparts, as well fewer in number mayhaps 3 per ground continent, they would be of an approximate size comparable to a small town/island. About 5x the scale/area as a ground base, where the fighting would be block to block, with linked buildings, streets/parks, large docks as well, multiple layers of both tight corridors/rooms with CQB elements, as well, areas large enough to have ground vehicles play a key role, being able to maneuver in groups, without always clustering up.

SATcom Air Towers could give the controlling faction a constant radar blanket over the ground platform over a set radius/area. Revealing un-camouflaged (non-cloaked) enemy positions/activity in a set radius area.

Which brings in ideas for
- cloakable low altitude airships as useful OAC marine barges
- Other cloaking tech options for ground forces such as
  - vehicle unlock features such as stealth camo
  - wide area signal jamming radius effect for ground support vehicles like Sunderer's, Deliverer's
  - or even deployable engineering options that act like the old PS1 AMS cloak bubble

Sub-Orbital Stations would be installation types like Shipyards, Communication Hubs, Armories, Transportation hubs, Warehouse Resource Docks.

These installations could later become vital to galactic faction infrastructure.
- Shipyards, no more than 2 per "planet" (not continent) would be required for manufacturing of heavy sub-orbital vessels.
- Planetary Resource Docks maintain the flow of faction resources for Faction wide Galactic Command.
- Communication Hubs. Just as it sounds, maintains communication with Galactic Command. A faction controlled planet that isn't updating information may be key to GFC there's a problem an mobilize an expeditionary force to investigate/handle the situation.

New lines of vehicles/weapons could be introduced, airships for the most part, ships designed for direct engagement naval operations like Torpedo Frigates, Dreadnaughts, Battleships, Cruisers, Flak frigates, Marine Barges or heavily fitted fast attack craft SMAC/MMAC for interceptor/bomber roles (Single Manned Attack Craft/Multi-Manned Attack Craft, yes I know, I'm borrowing from the old Space Master RPG).

Breaching pods could offer new ways for boarding actions outside of traditional entry points to stations (or outfit command carriers)

Now at this stage original OPs concept calls for resources used to maintain these vessels in the fight, eventually a "re-working" would come in to reduce the high cost as the sub-orbital theater would makes OACs play a more vital necessity. In the current resource model a high cost for build/maintenance is a great way to keep them from becoming the "new BFR" feature and kill the gameplay for many.

Sub-orbital/orbital expansions, if added as such a theater to the game, atm we have no assurance that such additions would be functional in the same environment as the server based ground continents. Perhaps the sub-orbital layer would still work, but all 3 would thin out the player population too much.

Would there be ceiling limitations to the aircraft designed for the base platform? ie, would the mossi, reavers, libs an gal's be able to fly up into the sub-orbital theater? Just like their are ceiling limitations for modern day aircraft? Or perhaps the vehicles/weapon systems being used in the sub-orbital field would just shred them with ease?

Orbital gameplay should have a possible indirect effect to the ground theater, with possible, command plotted mass orbital platoon drops, semi-sustained orbital bombardment, logistical support drops, etc.. It would really come down to player server capacity, hardware limitation. Having to many layers would thin out the epic scale warfare, making it feel less dynamic, bringing the massive infantry vs infantry moments to feel more like an instanced squad vs squad, platoon vs platoon. Not saying that's a bad idea, but we could all just play ARma2/BF3 or some other FPS game, mind you they wouldn't have that influencing action to the PS2 MMO, but Planetside 2 would lose that identity of large scale ground war, OR, could make those large scale assaults that much more epic, it's hard to say really, if you give the players the tools to build it.. great things can happen despite where we can debate or project.

As some Outfits grow and diversify others choose to specialize, with the additional layers to play in, there will come a remapping of assets/resources both on a faction level as well as outfit level. OAC's could become the backbone to building outfit Space Naval Groups or fleets to carry the war to other planets. Which is where I could see some AI elements surface for new planets.

OACs would have the flexibility of an expanded pool of options which could allow them to operate in any of these layers, without requiring the outfits to "start from scratch", they would just pay for the upgrades, or pay for the retooling/refitting cost for w/e the outfit operations decides they need for use in the field for their respective faction.

More layers would offer new role expansions for outfits and there players who may want to change/expand their role of interest for their faction. Mayhaps that ground pounder wants to be a Space Marine taking part in orbital/naval boarding actions instead of foot slogging on the ground, or that atmospheric pilot really wants to shoot for the stars, dogfighting between large ships.. protecting bombers on their runs.. or make torpedo runs on cruisers.

I'm sort of thinking along the lines of FASA's mechwarrior/Battletech, where there are mercenary outfits, Clan or House regiments. Mercenary outfits tend to be smaller in size and tend to specialize, House Regiments have large resource pools to draw from and diversify.

My apologies on a long winded, possibly offtopic an most likely a wild read. I had a brainstorm of ideas when I recalled that thought of reading/hearing that little dust514 to PS2 comparison/skirted topic (can't recall where it was written or video or what)