Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre

[Graywolves]

In starcraft 2 they made it so that you can't see another player's lossed game count unless they were in a really high league.

Perhaps in Planetside 2 something similar could happen except the top 100 per server or so will have their stats public.



I completely agree about how promoting personal kill streaks and strong K/D does more harm than good but it's something that's going to be there. In SC2 after they removed the ability for me to see my losses I just kept track of it personally.


I also think that the more serious players are going to realize which stats mean absolutely nothing very quickly too. It's fun to joke around and brag about your K/D but anyone that takes it serious and goes to a top outfit going "You NEED to invite me because I'm the best Killwhore on the server" is just going to be a joke.

[Dahlian]

I pretty much agree with the OP.

When I was watching the GDC vids and they showed the profile and stats tracking, I felt a bit let down. I'm mostly going to play engineer or medic and I don't think my K/D is the most relevant stat for support classes. It makes sense for things like sniper which is more about the headcount than anything else. Support classes should have something to show for it as well.

I'd support a score based system, though I don't think removing death in K/D is a good idea. Its a bit like SC2 where they removed losses and just shows wins. Win's are meaningless without losses. But then again, providing options to decide wether to show deaths or not would probably satisfy more people than removing it entirely.

[EVILoHOMER]

I have to wonder what kind of impact stat tracking would have on server performance if they were to track every single stat for each player. I would rather have more players, less lag and less stats if it mean lots of stat tracking would increase lag and cut down on players per server.

[Ragotag]

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

...So at what point did "killing" not become the primary objective in any shooter game? Bf3, COD, MOH, PS1, and soon to be PS2, killing the enemy is the primary objective, period.

...As I have said before, the killwhores move up the front line. They push the enemy to the spawns so that support players can fall in behind and set up defenses on captured territory.

From my experiences, I totally disagree with this; if you were referring to say, Team Deathmatch, then you would be right on the mark here. However, in an objective-base game mode, killing is a means, not the end. Capturing and holding objectives is what it is all about and killing is only one of several means to support this activity.

But in all fairness, I've seen a few run-n-gun style killwhores pushing into objectives... and then scoot right on past the objective looking for more meat to drop. The other side to that coin, and IMO - the more frequent killwhore stratagem, is to hang back and preserve KDR via sniping or other long range combat tactics.

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

Why do people think that "killwhores" are bad? The bottom line is if you are good at killing people in a WAR game, you are progressing your empire.

Actually, as implied above, the capture of objectives is what progresses your faction, not the killing. Too often the killwhores will only support objective captures so long as it does not impact their KDR, and when they do, they are often less concerned over the objective and more concerned with their kill count. This is not very supportive for the squad, the Outfit, or the faction; but that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Skitrel

The tracking of deaths isn't what's bad, it's the kills part of the KD equation that falsely sets the wrong goal.

... K : D emphasis will cause 100 snipers lined up on the mountain ridges, a la Battlefield, trying to earn kills with 0 deaths.

...This is the most simple argument in the world and anyone, even those that haven't played PS before can understand it. In a game where kills have no effect towards the GOAL (Cod goal= more kills than enemy) (Battlefield= take away tickets) then kills shouldn't be part of the equation that is emphasised.

I agree, tracking kills is what will likely promote this style of gameplay; this is the core concern being voiced here. Merely changing kills to something else is an interesting idea. Morlan's idea of using Score verses Kills is an improvement toward minimizing a focus on personal killwhoring, but perhaps not the optimal solution since it still promotes a focus on solo performance. However, I think it's the death (or per life) bases to the stats that is the largest cause of the concern here. Change the denominator to something that is more representative of team support instead of an individual solo effort, and you change the dynamic of what stat tracking promotes. I have suggested tracking stats by mission as an alternative stat denominator, to include all supportive activities in such stat collection -- not just the kills.

Originally Posted by Graywolves

I also think that the more serious players are going to realize which stats mean absolutely nothing very quickly too.

I believe this as well; people who have a similar attitude regarding stats and killwhoring will likely group together. I don't think this changes the main concern voiced by Malorn though, which as I read it, is the promotion of solo performance fixation verses team support.

[Physed]

I agree with the OP. A game with so many RPG elements and a persistent world has no need for tracking deaths and prominently featuring kill streaks and kill counts. A player's main goal is to help the empire take territory, so focus the tracking on that and the things that contribute to it (score, xp, assists, etc).

And for those saying that it needs to be included because the "modern FPS players" want it, just remember that those same players will ditch PS2 when the next CoD, MF, or Halo comes out. PS2 is designed to appeal to a different crowd.

[megamold]

Originally Posted by Graywolves

I also think that the more serious players are going to realize which stats mean absolutely nothing very quickly too. It's fun to joke around and brag about your K/D but anyone that takes it serious and goes to a top outfit going "You NEED to invite me because I'm the best Killwhore on the server" is just going to be a joke.

i agree.

to make a small comparison: when BF3 first started i noticed alot of cod style players ( run and gun, cover? never heard of it) but they quickly either realized you get a better score by actually helping the team instead of yourself
and the other guys just play team deathmatch or went back to cod

[Eyeklops]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The default should be carefully chosen though

I think the best default would be "off." A drop down box sorted alphabetically with "off" as the default has no intentional bias.

[SKYeXile]

Pretty sure the killwhore outfits won outfit wars... just saying.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Pretty sure the killwhore outfits won outfit wars... just saying.

Wouldn't say killwhore outfits, "1337fits" rather. Defensively it was about holding chokepoints with DL and spamming CE. Offensively it was about aircav use. These outfits collected specialists and veterans in both and worked together doing just that for years in resecs and holds.

Ground based outfits were air dominated and Galdrop outfits (that only work thanks to big distractions of the big battle) had to adapt to mass Mossie/Reaver/Lib tactics, where some of them never flew before. I wasn't surprised about who would win anyway.

Some of these outfits were killwhory at times (farming interfarms et al), but to say they were all or just killwhores would be dealing them short. To say outfit wars was a good representation of in game to the types of outfits is also a bit meh, since it wasn't exactly a representation of regular PS play. >.>

[Malorn]

Please stay on topic.

[Duddy]

Originally Posted by EVILoHOMER

I have to wonder what kind of impact stat tracking would have on server performance if they were to track every single stat for each player. I would rather have more players, less lag and less stats if it mean lots of stat tracking would increase lag and cut down on players per server.

A bit OT, but to address this point; (Also lol'd at this coming in directly after Malorn's post xD)

One would hope (by which I mean it would be monumentally silly otherwise, at least IMHO) that such stats would be stored in a database on a server other than those used for hosting the game. Depending on how/how frequent they update those stats would probably demand a dedicated DB.

The best way to be sure is to ask if we can speak to their database admin (DBA) and network admin!

Now back to your scheduled programming.

[Hydra]

[Opinion: No logical grounds provided to support this statement]
Obviously you never played the original planetside or you just sucked at it, zerging into a tower or base in my years of playing never won the day it took strategy and perseverance, my facts lie in my experience in the god damn game. Why would I even mention this if it wasn't proof already?

[Biased: Somewhat true, but you left out killwhores to shift the statement toward your own opinion]
Again Kill whores don't really contribute anything to the team, there is such a lack of team effort from their part because the only thing they are interested in their "domination" and kill streaks which unsurprisingly has been implemented in planetside 2. There is a difference between a teamplayer and a killwhore I seriously hope you know this fact, A teamplayer doesn't care about getting 20-0 in which case a killwhore does. Kills whores are useless pieces of shit.

[Opinion,unfounded claims of ownership & ability to delegate importance]

So you are saying a K/D ratio is more important then improving? Or do you like think your intelligent by stating your opinion?

Future prediction of other players abilities* using a non quantitative* term (ALOT), nice..yea, opinion

Because a K/D ratio doesn't encourage solo play and Kill whoring ok.

Opinion, speculation, how do you know that's all they have?
Ah yes, because most of current FPS's on the market DOESN'T encourage kill whoring and encourages more team-play.

Name me one game like Planetside.


[Opinion, with name calling, bravo!]

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

Ok, so upon dissection of your post, I found it to be mostly made up of strong opinion. This is an open forum, that is your right. But could you please quantify, in some logical manner using facts, how the part of the sentence after the comma in the picture you posted is true.

There's that word again, you seem to forget everything you also say is an opinion as well constatly repating the obvious does not make you look any smarter.
Fact of the matter is and I'll repeat it; Kill whoring does not belong in planetside due to the fact it never had a place in the first one, this isn't fucking battlefield or Cawwaduty I understand that the original will have to be brought up to meet certain FPS standards but fuck off with that garbage. There's a variety of outfits in Planetside for example DT, an excellent well coordinated group that I have seen turn the tide of battle, not once did I ever see their members zerg in a base without their team and attempt to get as many kills as they can before they die. You think anyone gives a shit about that other VS guy running out of the base by himself to find the ams and get kills? No. Because he doesn't contribute anything to the team, hell you don't even get that much experience for killing someone who just spawned.

You are truly a piece of shit player if the only thing you care about is your "K/D ratio" and not improving your skill for the glory of your empire. Yes I'm fucking pissed that this shit is even in the game in the first place, yes a K/D ratio was in the first one but half the people I know didn't even know it existed, it was in the background where it belong something - that should be personal and not fucking advertise.

And before you shout any meaninglessness garbage in a attempt to make yourself look smarter then you really are, why don't you play the original planetside right now and join in one of the battles and tell me your K/D ratio contributes to the team and wins the battle.

I don't see the point of the graph if they have that ratio, but you know what? lets face it. I mean look at your sig, you are a shitty troll and exactly the kind of problem why these fucking idiotic features have been added to this game. I've been playing planetside since 05, and I'm pretty fucking sure I know what hell I'm talking about don't start preaching to me about fucking facts- I KNOW THEM.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by Duddy

A bit OT, but to address this point; (Also lol'd at this coming in directly after Malorn's post xD)

One would hope (by which I mean it would be monumentally silly otherwise, at least IMHO) that such stats would be stored in a database on a server other than those used for hosting the game. Depending on how/how frequent they update those stats would probably demand a dedicated DB.

The best way to be sure is to ask if we can speak to their database admin (DBA) and network admin!

Now back to your scheduled programming.

Everything in terms of stats tracked by the game already has to be tracked by the game in order to facilitate gameplay. Bullets hit, bullets fired from your gun, and so on. Adding all of the stuff you do in game to a database really isn't taxing on the game, it's just a matter of instead of throwing away the log of everything you do in game it is passed on to be parsed for a database. Stat updating probably won't happen in realtime.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Hydra

Kill whoring does not belong in planetside due to the fact it never had a place in the first one.

I just want to touch on this point real quick. I think this quote is a very elitist point of view. You obviously don't like killwhores. That's fine and I can respect that. However, Planetside is an open-world game with thousands of players all battling at once. I think that it should encourage and support ALL kinds of players, from the 40/0 K/D whores, to the methodical tactical squads, to the non-shooter support players.

Your way to play the game may be the best way, but it is not the ONLY way. One of the great things about Planetside should be that it is accessable to all kinds of playstyles. I believe that will add to the logevity and success of the game and a large thriving community. Norrowing the "acceptable" players down to only a certain type of person is wrong.

[Eyeklops]

Hydra, let's not take this thread farther off topic. If you want to continue to debate over opinions create a new thread in the appropriate area and send me a pm linking to it.