Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2 - Page 18

Captain B · 2011-09-28, 09:17 PM

Oh I definitely agree, Xyntech. It's just without information (and quite honestly, the beta) to really flesh out the details, it isn't just teamwork/community facilitation (issue #1) but also the stats of vehicles with one-man crews (issue #2) that has me wondering where all of this will end up come launch. Being someone who's looking forward to running an air outfit, it does actually have implications outside of the "tank vs. tank" scenarios, and I'm curious as how it will impact the rest of the game (infantry/MAXes, air combat, engineers/turrets, etc.) as well.

Overall, my concerns aren't doomsday rhetoric but simply concerns as there are great things from PS1 that aren't broken, but seemingly being fixed anyway (although a lot of broken things ARE getting fixed, which is good too).

Xyntech · 2011-09-28, 09:32 PM

Unfortunately, I think some non broken elements may be collateral in fixing other issues.

Insuring a (slightly) faster pace of game play as well as giving solo players something to do are obviously important to the developers. Keeping the long time fans happy should also be an important concern, so we'll see how they react to this kind of feedback.

I guess I just haven't personally felt the same feeling as some that a one man tank will destroy the balance or team play of the game. Obviously stats and balance are a big factor, but unlike core gameplay mechanics, those can be tweaked extensively and on multiple fronts.

Unless a fixed gun is some sort of unalterable design philosophy of the new magrider, I do hope they change it to a turret, if only for the fact that it would be difficult to make it a turret later on and, if all of the tanks had a turret, it would be easier to make larger compromises for players who only wanted to drive the tank, not gun.

cellinaire · 2011-09-28, 09:52 PM

And to those who are continuously saying '1manned/2manned vehicle thing' is core gameplay mechanic(or system) and can't be changed forever, yeah it'll severely affect overall gameplay but I think it's not core-level. Between core-level and small feature, it's tucked in the middleground. Of course I know bad decision mustn't see the light of day from day one.

And to those who says this decision will totally annihilate, devastate teamplay nature of this game. well, I think it won't be that as severe as you guys might think. Just not that extreme. But we will see. I personally prefer PS1's way, though.

Aractain · 2011-09-29, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

[Good points and lots of awesome]

Different yes, but it could easily be balanced.

Balanced and in my opinion more fun because you can still do that teamwork awesomsauce while you have many more vehicles around you than in PS1. Requireing teamwork will always reduce numbers and that is counter productive to the game.

It could be very good.

Traak · 2011-10-01, 11:17 AM

Selectable proximity-fused ammo for tank weapons. The German WWII 88s had such ammo flexibility. Why not tanks in AWII?

Sorry, I didn't mention this was for AA defense purposes.

MasterChief096 · 2011-10-02, 01:19 PM

No one complained about tanks having to have gunners at all over the 8 years of PlanetSide. It seems like right now people are (upon having found out about this new system) are fabricating reasons to complain about it. If you're a solo player and want to gun a tank, go find another solo player and gun his tank for him, don't whine for SOE to dumb down one of the most important aspects of PlanetSide. You're still "solo'ing", you aren't communicating with the driver, he isn't telling you what to shoot, you just have to rely on him not to be a suicidal maniac.

I can't even think of any instances in which people complained about gunning for any of the vehicles.

Oh but wait, I can. People complained that BFRs DIDN'T get gunners often enough, and that BFR pilots were "solo-whoring" too often in a game that required "teamwork". I remember how this upset a lot of people.

Oh but chill out right? SOE said its in the game so they know what they are doing.

The only way I foresee one-manned tanks is if the customization allows you to slice off half the armor of the standard 2-man variant (with a significant change in appearance in the tank to be able to differentiate), and have 1-man tank SPECIFIC weapons that aren't as effective as 2-man tank ones.

Solo play shouldn't have a distinct advantage in an MMOFPS. Granted a lot of MMOs try to offer options for solo guys to have fun, but I never had any problem soloing in PlanetSide. Being a lone infantry, finding random vehicle drivers, or piloting aircraft provided enough solo experience for me.

Xyntech · 2011-10-02, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

No one complained about tanks having to have gunners at all over the 8 years of PlanetSide. It seems like right now people are (upon having found out about this new system) are fabricating reasons to complain about it. If you're a solo player and want to gun a tank, go find another solo player and gun his tank for him, don't whine for SOE to dumb down one of the most important aspects of PlanetSide. You're still "solo'ing", you aren't communicating with the driver, he isn't telling you what to shoot, you just have to rely on him not to be a suicidal maniac.

I can't even think of any instances in which people complained about gunning for any of the vehicles.

Oh but wait, I can. People complained that BFRs DIDN'T get gunners often enough, and that BFR pilots were "solo-whoring" too often in a game that required "teamwork". I remember how this upset a lot of people.

Oh but chill out right? SOE said its in the game so they know what they are doing.

The only way I foresee one-manned tanks is if the customization allows you to slice off half the armor of the standard 2-man variant (with a significant change in appearance in the tank to be able to differentiate), and have 1-man tank SPECIFIC weapons that aren't as effective as 2-man tank ones.

Solo play shouldn't have a distinct advantage in an MMOFPS. Granted a lot of MMOs try to offer options for solo guys to have fun, but I never had any problem soloing in PlanetSide. Being a lone infantry, finding random vehicle drivers, or piloting aircraft provided enough solo experience for me.

Nobody here is complaining about the old system. The devs have said that the driver will control the main gun in Planetside 2 and the argument is about whether this is going to destroy the game or not.

I don't think either option is going to be bad. All I'm arguing is that the new system will work if the devs decide to keep it.

I still think the solution of being able to install a second, bigger anti vehicle cannon in the gunner position and replace the drivers cannon with heavier armor would be a fair compromise.

Aractain · 2011-10-02, 11:44 PM

There was a hell of a lot of threads about tank balance due to the gunner requirement and how that effects the game and how aircraft don't need such a penalty.

The devs have now evened up that imbalance without making tanks one man only, they still have teamwork options within the vehicle (which is useful for people who don't have tanks upgraded). They simply removed the required teamwork element to get more tanks on the field.

Traak · 2011-10-02, 11:51 PM

What was the biggest demotivator to pulling a tank? If it was finding a gunner, see my thread about semi-automatic VNG seat filling.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/f...ad.php?t=37429

Aractain · 2011-10-03, 12:06 AM

Its never about one issue, its about all the issues stacked together. Back in PS1 if you were unorganised (a luxury only some can afford unfortunately, a tiny porportion of the game) you were faced with either no gunners or idiot gunners and even with a good gunner a one man reaver would pop up and annhiliate you before you even got to the combat zone meaning you also needed 2 more people in a skyguard to protect you (which would die to a mine just as you enter battle).

Finaly the stars have aligned and you get to the edge of a battle and for once in the last 3 hours you are having fun, you help push the battle to the base. Its an NC base. Your vehicle blows up in a stream of phantom missiles that you can't do anything about apart from tear up as the pheonix cruely removes the last drop of fun from the game.

"Welcome to Planetside newbie; the cert aircav button is there and the cancel sub button is over there, make your choice."

Talek Krell · 2011-10-03, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Aractain

A load of bullshit.

I don't know what sort of Chinese knockoff Planetside you've been playing, but you should try mine. The MBTs work great.

Azren · 2011-10-03, 02:16 AM

Aractain, in the old days of PS, finding a gunner was no problem. In fact there were always like 10 guys staning at the vpad exit, waiting for someone to roll a vehicle that needs a gunner.
There is a reason why you can lock the gunner position, something you don't really need to use these days anymore.

Getting a tank used to cost a lot of cert points, if you wanted engineer skills too (which is a must), your character was pretty much maxed out. No rexo, no heavy assault, just your tank and engi. Of course not many people wanted to get stuck with just that, so not everyone had a tank. Same is true for air cav. The problem is that nowadays the cert points needed for vehicles is much lower than it used to be, so one guy can have tank, air cav, and a load of other stuff too.

Now about your experience in PS: if you started recently, than that is exactly what you would experience. Getting blown up by reavers, or AV rockets, or biffers. This is what it all comes down to: join an outfit. If you join a reasonable outfit you will have a great time driving tanks. For example just yesterday we had a tank column of 5 mags and one SG weraking havoc on the TR and NC. Nothing beats the joy of destroying a biffer in your tank

Tanks do not need a driver gun, but if any, it should be an AI gun with limited turn (30° or so).

Traak · 2011-10-03, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Azren

If you join a reasonable outfit you will have a great time driving tanks.

Ah, but what if you don't gel with the little Hitlers that run outfits? Tanks should intrinsically be set up to reward being manned and being certed, without any external and extremely unreliable third persons, aka, outfits, being necessary.

PS is about teamwork, yes. But it also needs to be conducive to people who have no desire to be the fawning sycophant of some idiot hierarchy to be able to find others who are like-minded, team up, and play effectively.

Azren · 2011-10-03, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

Ah, but what if you don't gel with the little Hitlers that run outfits? Tanks should intrinsically be set up to reward being manned and being certed, without any external and extremely unreliable third persons, aka, outfits, being necessary.

PS is about teamwork, yes. But it also needs to be conducive to people who have no desire to be the fawning sycophant of some idiot hierarchy to be able to find others who are like-minded, team up, and play effectively.

Every outfit is different - you really need to be special not to find one that suits you.

Some vehicles should be setup to reward teamplay, and some to reward solo play. Do not want to put these two together, it will not end well.

The way is to allow soloers to pull weak tanks and aircraft that do reasonable damage and to allow team players to pull 2+ manned vehicles.

There has to be a line between the two, or everyone would be flying around in one manned Gunships...

At any rate, we will end up with a silly "do-it-all" tank because the devs do not have the time needed to implement all the other vehicles.

Aractain · 2011-10-03, 02:32 AM

I played since 2003 dawg, I usualy had a friend gun (prefered buggys actually) but the times when I played solo was just like... no.

If you look at a Vterm even early in the game it was mostly air. Maybe they want to change that in PS2?

I think maybe part of the problem here is that most of you guys had nice outfits to run with so don't have the experinces of what the lonewolf (who probably will account for 60% of the game if it does well) will go through. With out the support structure of a guild or ar least a few friends MMOs are usualy terrible experinces.

Making it fun to play the game solo does not mean the game is broken or less fun to play the game with friends. Indeed a well done solo game will keep people playing who might then end up with a nice outfit as a result of that.