Does the shallow TTK shortchange the Depth this game could have?

[Mietz]

Answer: Yes. Been saying that since beta.

If you pay attention in the game, PS2 isn't -actually- designed for tactics and positioning play, just like COD doesn't induce that.

Why? Because death is meaningless, respawn timers too short and gameplay too fast.
If you want a tactically deep game with this whole positioning and "hurhur outplayed you by shotgun in the back" you need to be closer to a sim than you are to an action game.

PS2 took the sim-y elements of recoil and extremely short TTK (~600ms on most guns) and paired them with the COD run-and-gun element.
Its a hodgepodge of mechanics that doesn't really make the game fun on any level:

RPG Elements:
Certs
Bullet DMG
COF (random)
Bloom

Sim Elements:
Recoil
Flinch
Projectile Drop
Damage Falloff

Action Elements:
Regenerating Health (shields)
Short respawn
Infinite Sprint
Viable Hip-Fire

By the developer words themselves, they wanted to make "BF3 on crack", and they succeeded, except that this playstyle "on crack" isn't really conductive of tactical and positioning play.

Rather, it translates into lucking out to find enemies not looking in your direction.

There is no element of picking the right tool for the job for example, infantry guns are mostly same-y, even with the varied "stats" they have.

If PS2 wants to be tactical, you would need to go the route of Arma or BF2 Reality Mod.
Otherwise tactics can not be executed, because "outplaying" an enemy or a group of enemies means dropping C4 with an LA jet-hopping on houses.

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by psijaka

I prefer a game like Planetside 2 where you have to think about cover, flanking, risking a run across open ground, where your enemy might be - situational awareness, in other words.

You mean like in ANY FPS game, regardless of high/low TTK.

Low TTK is a restriction in gameplay. Gunplay skill loses with low TTK.

Think of the one shot instances already in game, with infantry running to there deaths like rabbits looking at head lights at night. Alot of people have raged about these one shot situations putting people off the game.

[ShadetheDruid]

The whole high/low-TTK-tactical-or-no subject is a huge fail. It's all personal preference. Some people find high TTK more tactical, some people find low TTK more tactical.

Good thing is there's loads of games out there, something for everyone.

[Sledgecrushr]

The one element of ps2 that the devs got spot on imo is the ttk. I certainly dont feel buthurt when someone outflanks me and mows me down. That just means that I didnt approach that particular fight correctly. Just think about the current system as quick feedback on making mistakes.

[Seafort]

The low TTK doesn't add anything to the depth of the game. It promotes the zerg tactics which is in the game currently. If outfits could actually survive long enough to move tactically rather than the 0.5-1.0 secs TTK we have now it might change the way people play the game.

Personal shields in PS2 are a joke and should actually protect you longer than they do. You might as well not have a shield for all the protection it gives you.

The TTK is made even worse currently with the vehicle spam we have. A single tank or ESF can take out an entire squad because of how low it is.

I think all this comes down to the amount of worthless cover we have in game. I can't hide behind anything without the HE shells hitting me with their splash damage. Even in the middle of towers which should be safe from vehicles I get hit by the splash damage.

And please SOE put some bloody doors and windows in the openings of buildings and let them be hackable. It's the 25th century and buildings don't have doors and windows, seriously? :P

[Kerrec]

At the risk of being flamed for coming to PS2 from another game (/gasp!), I'm going to bring up BF3. BF3 has "normal" and "hardcore" modes. The MAIN difference being hardcore has a much lower TTK (as in it takes less time to kill).

Go into any BF3 forum and do a search for keyword "hardcore" and you'll find hundreds of threads about how "hardcore" is the more tactical version of BF3 because TTK is low, forcing you to play smarter and work better with your team.

From my experience, the whole BF3 "hardcore" vs. "normal" extra tactical argument was a big pile of poo. It's just people wanting to put their prefered game mode on a pedestal above the other modes. I played both, interchangably to come to one big realization:

1) My K/D, SPM & W/L ratios did not change one iota when switching from one mode to the other, regardless of the fact that I never changed my playstyle.
2) Hardcore had the same objective merry-go-round as normal mode. There was not more defense on a point to avoid moving across open spaces to get to the next objective. The way people played was exactly the same. They took the same risks crossing open terrain, the same risks charging into enemy with a vehicle to rack up as many kills as possible before having the vehicle destroyed, etc...

What difference DID it make?

1) Well, from my experience, there were alot more 1 shot kill snipers littering the landscape doing nothing but farming kills. Instead of playing ojbectives to win the match for the team, these people just farmed kills for whatever gratification they received from it.
2) It didn't matter what weapon you chose to use, they were all lethal.


Having read what I've just written, it sounds like I'm for increasing TTK. The lower the TTK, the more generic the weapons become and the more cheesy people become with respect to their playstyle.

However, high TTK does do one bad thing. It becomes a force multiplier for superior numbers. I had one memorable fight in PS2 where my faction was trying to take a tech plant in a 3 way battle. The NC had one of the tower walls fully manned and were farming all the idiots walking into their meatgrinder. As an LA, I would jetpack up to the first level of the tower, mow someone down and jump back down before anyone realized what happened. I'd reload, move a bit and do it again. I did this until I ran out of ammo. Then I used my grenade and after that my C4. I thinned out the blob of NC that was on that first floor of the tower and helped the stupid lemmings on team by lessening the meatgrinding they were facing. I was able to do that, because TTK is low. I eventually switched to my pistol and kept trying to take out individuals, but killing with the pistol took too long, and I got killed before I could finish off my target. I got greedy, stayed exposed too long, and died for that mistake.

Now, assume TTK was increased. In that situation, I would probably not have been able to contribute the little bit that I did. I would have jump packed up to the first floor, dumped alot of bullets into one target but stayed exposed too long and get shot by 10 guys all at once. Long TTK makes zergs even MORE powerful!

Not to mention that things like AI mines, C4 and grenades either get balanced along with the increase in TTK, making them moderately useless, or they become way overpowered. Might as well throw the Infiltrator class in that mix. If they can't one headshot kill with their strongest rifles, the class becomes mostly obsolete.

One of the big problems I'm having as an LA these days, is running out of ammo when I find a nice defensible spot. Higher TTK would aggravate that alot, forcing me to stay close to an ammo pack. That would make the LA class much less attractive, unless you doubled the quantity of ammo infantry can carry.

So what's the point of this thread? To wax nostalgic on what the devs *should* have done in your opinion? Or to try to drive a drastic (restart from scratch, IMO) change in the game?

[Sledgecrushr]

^This, shortening the ttk makes thinning the zerg even easier for uber skilled players. I am certainly not anywhere close to the uber category so I am very happy that the ttk is as long as it is.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You mean like in ANY FPS game, regardless of high/low TTK.

Low TTK is a restriction in gameplay. Gunplay skill loses with low TTK.

Think of the one shot instances already in game, with infantry running to there deaths like rabbits looking at head lights at night. Alot of people have raged about these one shot situations putting people off the game.

Low TTK is a restriction in gameplay only in so far as it forces people to be a bit more aware of the possibility that they might die if they do something stupid.

High TTK is a restriction in gameplay as it devalues the usefulness of situational awareness if players can get away with mistakes before they can be punished for them.

I actually don't think that PS2 TTK is particularly low. Kerrec has made reference above in his excellent post to hardcore mode in BF, and the same exists in COD - pretty extreme when one bullet from pretty much any gun can take you out. Hardcore is the correct name for it! Normal mode COD normally takes 3-5 bullets to kill.

The other extreme is Firefall, where it takes something like 20 - 40 bullets from a full auto weapon to drop someone.

Planetside 2 is a happy medium; generally takes 6 - 9 bullets to drop someone at close range; more at long range.

[Rbstr]

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

Some people find high TTK more tactical, some people find low TTK more tactical.

The word tactical doesn't mean anything any more except "The way I like it"

Lower TTK devalues the initiative and the the value of each individual shot. One on one fights become about accuracy management over time: Keeping weapon scatter on target. Whereas lower TTK one on ones are more about initial precision: Hitting the right places first.

[RSphil]

i like shorter TTK as it makes for less side strafing and other crap people do. i like a little realism in my fps games. and yes i know this is in the future but that wont make people bullet resistant.
dieing quick makes people think about how to approach bases, buildings, people ect. makes it more tactical imo.

i have always played other fps games on hardcore mode and so far i am liking ps2 in every way.
yes there are some problems but it is a new game and we should be use dot this by now. keep it how it is. with hp increase via certs it the TTk changes a little but still feels good.

[ringring]

PS2 isn't particularly deep. You aim you shoot that's it.


A different perspective that doesn't involve ttk.

Q. What about capturing bases and outposts, are the connections governing which you capture?
A. It's complex. Imagine a map whereby the links between the facilties are lines and it would look like a spider's web with many connections.

Q. Given the above, does it matter which facility you capture next.
A. No not really. Deciding which facility to capture is shallow.

Q. Can the connections between facilties be made less complex but at the same time make the capture decisions deeper?
A. Yes. Reduce the links influencing capture between the facilties forcing an attacking force to have to navigate and plan ahead and enabling defenders to anticipate attack routes which would provide oppotunities to counter an attacking strategy.

Q. Yea, that's deeper, but most people would call that a lattice wouldn't they?
A. Yes they would.

[Dougnifico]

People always talk about how a higher TTK adds tactics. I don't see how a bunny hopping strafe fight adds more tactics. Halo didn't have a lot more tactics than COD. I agree the game is shallow, but only for a lack of meta-game and proper utilization of area outside the Crown. TTK has nothing to do with it. I'm in agreement that low TTK makes pre-engagement choices have more weight.

To be honest, if they had one hardcore server, I would be one of the first to check it out. It just adds to the fact that I should be a little more careful about my actions.

[Figment]

What's these silly mentionings of bunny hopping?


This isn't Counterstrike.


If you really want to remove bunnyhopping, do what PS1 did: ADD STAMINA / UTTERLY RUIN AIM WHILE JUMPING.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You mean like in ANY FPS game, regardless of high/low TTK.

Low TTK is a restriction in gameplay. DANCING skill loses with low TTK.

Think of the one shot instances already in game, with infantry running to there deaths like rabbits looking at head lights at night. Alot of people have raged about these one shot situations putting people off the game.

Fixed that for you. Jumping around, and straffing is not gun play. Its jumping around and running in circles.
In a real gun fight the other guy would kill you then laugh at you if you tried that shit.

[RodenyC]

Who ever jumped in PS1? Nobody.Know why? You had to worry about stamina.
I would like the TTK bumped up just a little more and it would be perfect.