The Issue of the 10%-20% Power Differentiation

[Senyu]

Theres some long paragraphs in this thread. Guess thats good.


Sorry I didn't read everypost in this thread but my understand of the 20% power increase took EVERYTHING into consideration. Its not 20% stronger for your rifle. But is actually the 1% or less adding to the total 20% a long term player would have over the new player

[NewSith]

I voted that it is "necessary", but under certain conditions. This difference shall be gradual and balanced.

One thing that bothers me though is the Headshots. Increased damage + HShot is:

X*120%+Y*120%

Where:
X - Primary DMG
Y - HS DMG

Not very good.

[millo]

Doesn't Battlefield: Bad Company 2 do something similar with Magnum ammo increasing bullet damage by 25%? It gave an edge but you could still kill people without it (and it was flat 25% straight to damage bonus). Of course the silly thing was that in the end everyone would use it above any other perk, but still it was a big deal just on some kind of weapon/server combination (M95+HC server----->oneshot kill to the chest). Also, if it's a rough figure of every bonus added (RoF, accuracy, magazine size, damage, dropoff, all combined), it would probably mean even less, especially if they set up the skill progression so you can close 80-90% of the gap in a couple weeks (a la EvE).

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by millo

Doesn't Battlefield: Bad Company 2 do something similar with Magnum ammo increasing bullet damage by 25%? It gave an edge but you could still kill people without it (and it was flat 25% straight to damage bonus). Of course the silly thing was that in the end everyone would use it above any other perk, but still it was a big deal just on some kind of weapon/server combination (M95+HC server----->oneshot kill to the chest). Also, if it's a rough figure of every bonus added (RoF, accuracy, magazine size, damage, dropoff, all combined), it would probably mean even less, especially if they set up the skill progression so you can close 80-90% of the gap in a couple weeks (a la EvE).

(see my previous post for activation question) Your comment here is dead-on to the activation question. If it works like BFBC2 there's not too much of an issue since no player can have everything at once - they have to pick and choose what they want to run with at any given moment. That captures specialization and customizing a character.

There's two ways they can do it. They can either give you all of the bonuses you unlock all the time (imagine having all of the BFBC2 gadgets at all times, so 25% damage, 25% armor, faster runspeed, better weapon handling, etc), OR they can do it the BFBC2 way where you have to make a choice about which bonuses you want and ranking up just opens up more possibilities.

The 25% damage one specifically was a good example of a poorly designed benefit. It was highly popular because it was one of the most useful bonuses. It helps you anytime you shoot, while the others tended to help you in a more limited capacity. Balancing the benefits themselves is a different mechanic discussion best saved for beta, but the overall design of how a player unlocks it and uses it is very much relevant at this time.

[millo]

Maybe they could go for a "mixed blessing" design type:

-Increased caliber (more damage, weapon kicks like a mule and is harder to control)
-Extended magazine (more ammo, heavier and harder to aim)
-Ammunition feed overdrive (faster RoF, weapon prone to random jams)
-Longer barrel (increased range, even heavier weapon)
and so on. You could use if you wanted all the mods at once, so you got a high damage, rapid firing, long distance firing weapon, but it would be horrible to fire even in short bursts, would jam randomly, slow you down while using it and so on...

Works with armor mods too (want more absorb? Sure, but you walk like a snail. Need increased protection from shrapnels? Lose some bullet resistance, and so on).

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

So basically what I gathered from this is that you are in favor of power advancement for veterans via unlocks, simply because you are in favor of it? You're not for it for any particular reason other than you don't think its a bad idea?

Basically the argument you are making is that if a veteran unlocks more powerful rockets for his reaver, as well as something that increases his reavers speed or maneuverability, he has to choose which one to take with no penalty for either. If he chooses the more powerful rockets he is NOT choosing the increased maneuverability thus his reaver will be vulnerable to the guys who did choose the maneuverability?

This makes complete sense and is a good point, I agree. I can see where you are coming from here. But this method of power progression only works when veterans are fighting other veterans who have been given the same options. A new player who is flying a reaver will not have unlocked the more powerful rockets or the increased speed/maneuverability, and thus will be at a huge disadvantage to a veteran who has. This is where the problem is with me. I would rather, as a veteran, take the more powerful rockets and choose to lose a little speed/maneuverability or perhaps armor, but have the benefit of being able to dish out more damage.

Why is 100% balance such a bad thing to aim for? Obviously no game has ever achieved 100% balance, nor is it likely for any game to ever achieve this. Opinions vary too much and someone will always be displeased with how something works.

Your post says that infantry can specialize in protecting themselves from vehicles, but its the same flaw, only veteran infantry players will have access to all things that keep them protected from being farmed by vehicles. New players would still be running around out in the open getting farmed by veteran infantry players with raw power upgrades that they didn't have to sacrifice anything for.

With the method I've mentioned, a veteran can still have an advantage over a new player in close combat, if he's upgraded his gun to do less damage but have more bullets in a clip and have a higher ROF. Its all up to the player and how he feels the need to play the game.

I don't see what I proposed as destroying what the specialization tree can create, I see it as adding to it immensely.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

You're assuming new players would be scared away before being able to specialize I'm assuming? I agree that is scary proposition, but in the long term anyone sticking around would realize they'd be on par with anyone else after a while with the same opportunities.

I basically said that's a very real thing that could happen where a new player that just logs in for the first time might find their character unspecialized. It's kind of something they'd expect that would go away as the begin playing.

I'm seeing the cert system as a huge trade-off between many epic choices. So an infantry could just as easily be awesome at destroying tanks as anything else in the game could specialize to kill something else. The idea being though that I hope there are so many choices that there is no best. Like I said in IRC a few days ago I want someone to do something and go "oh sweet. Good thing I have X." then die another time and go "oh man I wish I had Y I could have used it".

[CutterJohn]

Honest question. Whats the point of a 1v1 comparison? These are quite rare in PS. By the time you are in a 20v20, the differences between the sides average out.

[Higby]

We're going to have hundreds if not thousands of certs at launch. These will vary from certs that unlock new weapons, implants, vehicles, weapon/vehicle attachments and class skills to ones that allow for faster reloading, less cone of fire, larger ammo capacity, and yes, additional damage. When we say overall 20% increase in power we're talking holistically, not necessarily "each of your bullets do 20% more damage! a winner is you!".

The spirit of the PS2 cert system is very much based around the PS1 paradigm of advancement by addition of situational flexibility and overall breadth of gameplay options. A good fps player playing light assault with minimal certs will always kick the shit out of a bad fps player playing light assault with a lot of certs.

Edit: MasterChief096 - I'm definitely not trying to bust up your thread by stating any of this, it's a great poll and I appreciate seeing everyone's point of view. I just want everyone to understand what our goals with the cert tree and power growth actually are. Carry on!

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Higby

We're going to have hundreds if not thousands of certs at launch. These will vary from certs that unlock new weapons, implants, vehicles, weapon/vehicle attachments and class skills to ones that allow for faster reloading, less cone of fire, larger ammo capacity, and yes, additional damage. When we say overall 20% increase in power we're talking holistically, not necessarily "each of your bullets do 20% more damage! a winner is you!".

The spirit of the PS2 cert system is very much based around the PS1 paradigm of advancement by addition of situational flexibility and overall breadth of gameplay options. A good fps player playing light assault with minimal certs will always kick the shit out of a bad fps player playing light assault with a lot of certs.

Well I must admit I'm pretty impressed at how fast an official response to thread actually arrived.

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by it being holistic? From what I understand you mean that the potential 20% increase is going to be spread out between the various stats? Players won't be able to solely increase damage by 20%, but rather keep unlocking certs (in the form of modifications/implants/whatever) that upgrade a weapon or vehicle base stats by slight amounts. So an example would be a veteran with maxed out MA certifications might have a 20% advantage over a new player, but its going to be something like 3% damage difference, maybe 6% ROF difference, 4% accuracy difference, 7% clip size difference?

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by it being holistic?

Holistic: relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts


I.e. 20% total improvement, after adding everything up.

[Higby]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Holistic: relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts

Also, medical certs will be replaced with using various roots, meditation and acupuncture to cure combat wounds.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Higby

Also, medical certs will be replaced with using various roots, meditation and acupuncture to cure combat wounds.

Can we also solve mysteries by studying the interconnectedness of all things?

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

Character advancement in PS served to allow you to more closely follow your play style by giving you more options without increasing power, I see no reason why PS2 should be any different. It was one of the few things PS actually did completely right that was different from other games.

Options are power. You suck less frequently. You spend less time running around with the wrong equipment being ineffectual and getting killed because you have fewer hitpoints and can't drop back every time you take damage for a quick heal or whatever.

And PS gave straight up power with levels. Pshield, second wind, melee booster, surge, etc. These are not available to newbs. How is 100 extra hitpoints that a newb cannot possibly get in any way until they level not increasing power with levels?

And it had command ranks. Gave you an emp, radar scan, and OS. What are these if not increased power?

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Higby

Also, medical certs will be replaced with using various roots, meditation and acupuncture to cure combat wounds.

Are you saying PS2 will have RPG style crowd control? You do realize that is a guaranteed kill for an FPS... right?

[Higby]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

From what I understand you mean that the potential 20% increase is going to be spread out between the various stats? Players won't be able to solely increase damage by 20%, but rather keep unlocking certs (in the form of modifications/implants/whatever) that upgrade a weapon or vehicle base stats by slight amounts. So an example would be a veteran with maxed out MA certifications might have a 20% advantage over a new player, but its going to be something like 3% damage difference, maybe 6% ROF difference, 4% accuracy difference, 7% clip size difference?

Correct. We definitely are relying on tradeoffs more than anything else. Most of our weapons for a class are "sidegrades" rather than upgrades, but there are upgrades here and there that essentially follow the model you suggest. We also unlock things like weapon attachments such as a scope or flash suppressor would be part of what we use to calculate that 20% advantage, although exactly how some of those are calculated gets a bit tricky.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Higby

Correct. We definitely are relying on tradeoffs more than anything else. Most of our weapons for a class are "sidegrades" rather than upgrades, but there are upgrades here and there that essentially follow the model you suggest. We also unlock things like weapon attachments such as a scope or flash suppressor would be part of what we use to calculate that 20% advantage, although exactly how some of those are calculated gets a bit tricky.

Well in this sense I'm not as against it as I once was, but altogether the true PlanetSide player in me will never support even a 0.5% power advantage. Obviously I will be playing PlanetSide 2 even with power upgrades, so long as they don't become game-breaking. I guess I'll calm down a bit until you guys release more detailed information or we find out in beta and how it all works out in actual gameplay.

Also, Higby, another huge concern is if a player can achieve 20% advantage at sometime, how much MORE of a percentage will be added to that if that player is in an outfit that also specializes in that individual's playstyle and unlocks even MORE certs and what not for that players weapon's/vehicle's? Or is the 20% calculation made from both player advancement as an individual as well as outfit advancement combined?