No MAX

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Effective

Most players don't know how to use a max to it's full potential.

Maxs are powerful (more so on defense then anything else) due to their durability, fast TTK vs. infantry and lack of effective counters indoors.

They have essentially 2 counters inside, and oddly both are lacking in their jobs in the majority of scenarios.

Decimators and AV maxs

Unfortunately for the decimator, every single max unit in the game has a faster TTK then a rexo wielding said decimator and the decimator is only useful when a max is chasing you, but he doesn't have to chase, he just has to defend, and if it's his base, the combination of interlink + medical terminals + auto run means he can run you down from multiple angles.

and the AV max, the only way to kill multiple maxs without suiciding is to keep your distance so splash doesn't kill you, but doing that exposes you to decimators and ESAV.

Not to mention a person with unimax certed could switch to an AA max with 1hp left and then it's impossible for him to die, because the moment you get 2 decis into him he can switch to a AV max, then once again you get 2 more decis into him he can switch to an AI max, oh wait that's 4/6 shots of your decimators you've used, your going to die.

When I read this stuff, I honestly wonder how much you've used the Max units. For example, you talk about the TTK between a Max and a Rexo with Deci's. Well yeah, if they are standing there, toe to toe, the Max should wipe the floor with the Rexo, but it never happens like that. The Rexo will fire, duck behind cover, reload, pop out and fire again, repeat as neeeded. The Max can eaither run away, or try to close the distance, but even a Rexo is quick enough to stay ahead of the Max. So practically speaking, a single Rexo with AV has the advantage over a single Max....unless they are locked in some hypothetical room with no cover.

Or you bring up this idea that someone with uni-max can just keep switching armor in the middle of a fight? Honestly, how many times has this happened to anyone? I don't know if I've ever seen anyone do this in all the years I've played. It's like worrying about a tornado in New York City. Sure in theory it's possible, but the likelihood of that happening is so remote it's not even worth discussing.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Raymac

When I read this stuff, I honestly wonder how much you've used the Max units. For example, you talk about the TTK between a Max and a Rexo with Deci's. Well yeah, if they are standing there, toe to toe, the Max should wipe the floor with the Rexo, but it never happens like that. The Rexo will fire, duck behind cover, reload, pop out and fire again, repeat as neeeded. The Max can eaither run away, or try to close the distance, but even a Rexo is quick enough to stay ahead of the Max. So practically speaking, a single Rexo with AV has the advantage over a single Max....unless they are locked in some hypothetical room with no cover.

Or you bring up this idea that someone with uni-max can just keep switching armor in the middle of a fight? Honestly, how many times has this happened to anyone? I don't know if I've ever seen anyone do this in all the years I've played. It's like worrying about a tornado in New York City. Sure in theory it's possible, but the likelihood of that happening is so remote it's not even worth discussing.

It would seem I've used a max and fought against them more often then you have going off how you've NEVER seen any of the above. If you read my first sentence, it specifically says most players don't use max units to their full potential, meaning that most players don't know how to use a max, they just go charging forward while wearing a blind fold so they die a stupid pointless death.

Notice I said every max has a faster ttk then a rexo wielding decimators, this includes Anti-Air and Anti-Vehicle maxs, notice very carefully that it doesn't say Anti-Air+Infantry, or Anti-Vehicle+Infantry. They shouldn't be a effective counter to infantry, simple fix reduce damage to infantry while using AA/AV max weapons.

Also you mention pop and using cover with a decimator, carefully re-read my statement about max units. In order to use the decimator like this, this requires the max to follow/chase you, unfortunately that doesn't exactly cover a pretty large portion of the game, including hypothetical rooms with no cover, particularly when that max is on defense.

As for using the ability to reset armor with multiple max suits, just because it's not done often, doesnt mean it hasn't been done, or that it isn't imbalanced. I've seen quite a few people use it, and I've done it as well on my br40, the fact is, anyone who's close to a terminal can do it, just because some people aren't smart enough to figure out how to do it, doesnt mean it's not worth discussing.

[basti]

Sobekeus, Effect, mind if you two get the *beep* back to forumside and be *beep* there?

No maxes, seriously. Should we also remove all kinds of vehicles, support certs, bases, gens, etc?
What about just 4 rooms? 3 Spawn rooms and one giant hall to fight in. Oh, and the game is called "Planetside: Quake"


But to be fair, i agree there should be less maxes. But the problem didnt occur before they implemented BR40. Before BR40, only very few players wherent really happy with their certs. I had my tree done and fine, without any need to ever change a cert again. BR40 just gave me, and alot of others, new options, and allowed a shitload of people to get a max.
That wont happen in PSN, so stop making an issue out of something that isnt an issue...

[Effective]

Originally Posted by basti

Sobekeus, Effect, mind if you two get the *beep* back to forumside and be *beep* there?

No maxes, seriously. Should we also remove all kinds of vehicles, support certs, bases, gens, etc?
What about just 4 rooms? 3 Spawn rooms and one giant hall to fight in. Oh, and the game is called "Planetside: Quake"

Because planetside has more depth then quake, however, max units do nothing but disrupt combat indoors, and actually make things less fun, especially when smart players actually use a max to it's full potential to blatantly abuse how broken it is (note this happens when fighting max units on defense more so than offense). Not that I blame the players, it's SOE's fault for not implementing appropriate measures to make sure that there are decent counters for it.

and btw, I'm not for completely removing max units from the game (as I do see their place in PS as the game currently stands), only changing them so planetside is a game where strategy, tactics, situational awareness, and even "skill" actually make the difference in PS, and not spam and attrition (not that numbers shouldn't affect the outcome of a battle).

So do you have an actual constructive argument rather then the always bad "removing max units from PS will make it just like quake or CS!" argument. Note this argument doesn't do anything, considering the game is not divided between "HA/Mossie players" and "max users".

Edit: And yes BR40 was a terrible addition to PS, it shows exactly why many of the things in PS are currently broken, aircraft, max units, SA/hand grenades, and many more!

[Vancha]

If people only had as many certs as they had at Br20, I imagine any problems of too many MAXs would largely fix itself.

As far as supposedly being too powerful...If the majority of players that use a MAX "aren't using it to it's full potential", then what is it that makes the skill ceiling so high for those that are? What is it about the MAX that allows whoever's so much better at using them to be able to do so?

[Baneblade]

Effective is the most qualified poster on PSU right now to talk about PS as it stands right now. He has more kills on deleted toons than my lifetime total, including ActiveX. He may be a TRx muppet now, but his PS credentials are beyond challenge.

I think MAXes are like BFRs, too much of the wrong thing and just ended up being nerfed into annoyance. Yet BFRs had the MAX Effect on vehicleside, which was out of the question apparently.

Do I use MAXes? Yes.

Do I think they are a good element in PS? No.

MAX suits seem to be filling roles infantry already can or should fill.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Vancha

As far as supposedly being too powerful...If the majority of players that use a MAX "aren't using it to it's full potential", then what is it that makes the skill ceiling so high for those that are? What is it about the MAX that allows whoever's so much better at using them to be able to do so?

It's intelligence, this quote from my clan's gaming theory section pretty much covers your question.

"I believe there are four categories that every single gamer fits into. These could even be extrapolated upon in sports or other arenas.

* Group 1: This is the group of gamers who are intelligent and just plain good. They are the ones discovering the game mechanics, bugs and/or exploits and taking advantage of them. Exploring and experimenting with the game to its limits. They dictate the nature of the game and are the ones creating playstyles and strategies. These are considered the best players of a game.
* Group 2: This a group of players who are intelligent enough to be good, but lack the creative spark necessary to revolutionize and dictate the way the game is played. They often are able to copy playstyles and strategies from the first group. This essentially makes them as good as the first group, until Group 1 creates counters and they then have to relearn them.

It is possible to transition into Group 1 from Group 2. These kinds of players typically start the game late, or simply improve upon and modify what they've learned from Group 1, thus transitioning them into Group 1.
* Group 3: These are the players who at first glance, and perhaps will always remain, pretty nooby. For whatever reason they just don't grasp the game mechanics, and/or maybe aren't very competitive. In order for these players to ascend to one of the other two groups, it generally takes an epiphany inspired by external sources. Although it is possible for them to come to the realization on their own.
* Group 4: This group is pretty much on permanent scrub status. Whether it due to lacking the ability and intelligence to succeed, or just a complete lack of drive that will never materialize, these players will always be bad.

It should be noted that there are two subgroups to Group 3, as is briefly implied. The one group has the epiphany on their own accord, the second group needs that outside stimulus in order to reach that point. You could also probably include another group in between Group 3 and Group 2. This is the group that can be (usually painstakingly) trained in order to perform somewhere below Group 2. If any game mechanics change or new mechanics are implemented they will have to be retrained, provided they are a permanent member of this group."

Of course it doesn't cover things like players who are bad due to an old PC etc, but I think you get the point.

Edit, I feel I should add in that things like max units and special assault tend to attract players who are less creative then others, typically players in the categories of 3 and 4, call it condescending, but I view that as something of the truth. When players who really knew how to use those weapons used them, it spelled trouble quite loudly.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Effective

It would seem I've used a max and fought against them more often then you have going off how you've NEVER seen any of the above. If you read my first sentence, it specifically says most players don't use max units to their full potential, meaning that most players don't know how to use a max, they just go charging forward while wearing a blind fold so they die a stupid pointless death.

Notice I said every max has a faster ttk then a rexo wielding decimators, this includes Anti-Air and Anti-Vehicle maxs, notice very carefully that it doesn't say Anti-Air+Infantry, or Anti-Vehicle+Infantry. They shouldn't be a effective counter to infantry, simple fix reduce damage to infantry while using AA/AV max weapons.

Also you mention pop and using cover with a decimator, carefully re-read my statement about max units. In order to use the decimator like this, this requires the max to follow/chase you, unfortunately that doesn't exactly cover a pretty large portion of the game, including hypothetical rooms with no cover, particularly when that max is on defense.

As for using the ability to reset armor with multiple max suits, just because it's not done often, doesnt mean it hasn't been done, or that it isn't imbalanced. I've seen quite a few people use it, and I've done it as well on my br40, the fact is, anyone who's close to a terminal can do it, just because some people aren't smart enough to figure out how to do it, doesnt mean it's not worth discussing.

I don't care what type of max unit you are in, if a rexo is just standing there in front of you trading shots, any max should win everytime. As a rexo, if you are too dumb to try to out-manuever a max unit, then you should continue to die until you figure that out.

Then I don't understand what you mean by poping out from cover to fire a deci ONLY works if the max is chasing you. I'm not trying to be arguementative here, I honestly don't understand what you mean by that. From my experience, that tactic works whether the max is chasing you, you are chasing the max, or it's just standing there.

As for the switching max armors tactic you keep bringing up, it's so rare, I have a hard time calling it a problem. Its actually probably more effective to die, respawn 10 seconds later, and just pick up a new max suit. I do see what you mean by having a constant max rotation available, but using it in a context of a 1v1 fight just is not even worth discussing. I mean I've seen alot of crazy things in this world. I've seen a fucking bear riding a bicycle, but that doesn't mean I'm worried about bears when I go on a bike ride.

But keeping in mind the fundamental issue of being able to constantly rotate max units, I think there is room to increase the timers for the max armors, perhaps giving them a universal timer. At the very least, I think they should get rid of the Unimax cert. If somebody wants to try to do something like that and just spend all day in maxes, thats fine, but don't give them a discount. Make them spend the certs for it.

[Baneblade]

I'm in Group 1, or at least that is what my mommy always said.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I don't care what type of max unit you are in, if a rexo is just standing there in front of you trading shots, any max should win everytime. As a rexo, if you are too dumb to try to out-manuever a max unit, then you should continue to die until you figure that out.

Then I don't understand what you mean by poping out from cover to fire a deci ONLY works if the max is chasing you. I'm not trying to be arguementative here, I honestly don't understand what you mean by that. From my experience, that tactic works whether the max is chasing you, you are chasing the max, or it's just standing there.

As for the switching max armors tactic you keep bringing up, it's so rare, I have a hard time calling it a problem. Its actually probably more effective to die, respawn 10 seconds later, and just pick up a new max suit. I do see what you mean by having a constant max rotation available, but using it in a context of a 1v1 fight just is not even worth discussing. I mean I've seen alot of crazy things in this world. I've seen a fucking bear riding a bicycle, but that doesn't mean I'm worried about bears when I go on a bike ride.

But keeping in mind the fundamental issue of being able to constantly rotate max units, I think there is room to increase the timers for the max armors, perhaps giving them a universal timer. At the very least, I think they should get rid of the Unimax cert. If somebody wants to try to do something like that and just spend all day in maxes, thats fine, but don't give them a discount. Make them spend the certs for it.

If you think about it, the decimator is specifically designed to be killed max units, as projectile is to slow and the clip is to small to be dangerous to anything but small vehicles that aren't moving, which would mean that a rexo wielding a decimator should win vs. an enemy max suit (with the exception being against an AI max unit, as that would defeat the purpose of using an AI max if you couldnt kill him).

As for using the decimator, I'm referring to smart max users as opposed to dumb ones, and a bit of how max units are extremely powerful on defense. A smart max user in a defensive situation, isn't going to let you simply deci him for free, you'll likely die trying to do it, as all he has to do is corner hump and wait for you to approach him, depending on what your goal is (be it the spawns, the cc, the gen, etc). Now if your on defensive, your chances are obviously much better at killing him.

As for addressing rotating max armors (and I don't see this as rare, considering I did it all the time when I had unimax)/max spam as a whole, my idea/concept is actually a buff and a nerf at the same time.

Make the max unit 1 intergrated suit, keep the overall cert cost 5-7 points. The kicker is, that the max user can switch weapons without penalty, like a BFR, but it doesn't reset his armor, and he isn't able to move into another max suit if he dies to soon. Make the AV max the base max suit platform, then you can purchase the AI/AA max for 1 point each.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Effective

clarification for Raymac the dummy-head

Well, that makes more sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to clarify. Anytime I hit a moving vehicle with a Deci, it feels like I just threw a touchdown pass. You really have to lead your target just right. I still think a good Rexo with AV could beat a good corner humping Max, but it would be a closer fight.

Back to your original idea of 1 max suit with different weapons, I think it is a very interesting idea and certainly not too complicated or farfetched. I can't wait to see what they are actually going to do.

[Lonehunter]

I don't think the number of maxs has been a problem, but I would like to see them beefed up a bit and have a much higher cooldown, resource, or cert cost.

[Baneblade]

How about the timer starts at death, not at the equipment terminal. You only get one actual suit for that timer, but you can swap out the weapon BFR style. And the cert cost goes something like this:

3 Rexo (preq for MAX)
3 -MAX Basic (MAX armor with AI/AV weapon options and no special ability)
3 --MAX Advanced (AA and special abilities unlocked)
6 ---MAX Master (reduced timer, increased inventory, 350 additional armor [1000 armor vs 650])

So 9 pts for what 6 gets you today, and 15 for the Master cert for ppl who want to specialize exclusively in MAXes. Which is sort of the theme I'm going with in all my cert suggestions. Master certs for those who specialize in one thing above all else.

[Teek]

I really agree with Effect on this one, I don't want to see Maxes get taken out, but I think that they really need some changes. Make it harder to cert, maybe a longer cooldown time to get the armor, and definitely make Armor piercing rounds more effective, that stuff was generally useless from what I remember.

Also, I think the maxes could in general use a redesign in terms of looks. They all seem kinda ugly. And where is my NC railgun? WHY DO WE NOT HAVE MORE OF THESE?

Also, I always thought we could have a 4th (or 5th, counting Effect's anti-max max) armor with jump capabilities, but lighter armor and weapons. I think it would make base gameplay a lot more interesting, but I guess Vanu wouldn't feel so special (small violin)

[Sifer2]

Well I like MAX cause its one of the more unique elements of th game. I don't want to play a game where its near 100% same military units as real life. Which with BFR's being gone if they removed MAX's then the only none boring unit would be hover tanks if even those are still in.

Honestly I agree with others that if BR is lower an Unimax is gone the problem will largely go away. I think they gave Unimax so people would perform AA an not just farm Infantry. But like BFR's people doing too much is bad.