Becoming Disappointed. - Page 2

ichebu · 2012-06-01, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rbstr

I am already disappointed with the closed mindedness of so many who haven't played the game yet.

QFT - I'm getting very tied of these "*random thing* is broken!" posts when they haven't even touched the game. It's one thing to speculate, it's another to make wild claims based on hearsay.

MrBloodworth · 2012-06-01, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by basti

2. Squad spawning is the exact same mechanic as the old Hart + Drop pod. Its just the same without recalling and waiting for the hart. In fact, the sanc recall hart thing was more powerful, as you could send a entire PLATOON, no, AN ENTIRE CONTINENT WORTH OF PEOPLE bloddy EVERYWHERE. At ANY time, without ANY restrictions. Squad spawning wont allow that.

I'm not going to respond to everything, because its your opinion. But I do think you have missed the jist of my post. That many of the decisions, and the thrust of the game design is not one fitting a War game, it has to many session based design points in it.

I do want to correct you here though. Its my understanding, and experience that the HART was the same for all empires. It was a reinforcement mechanic, not a spawn mechanic. What is meant by that is, HART drops all happened at the same time, regardless of empire. That's why you would occasionally see other empires dropping right next to you. It also had a long timer in between launches. Its not anywhere near the same functionality of individually timed personal drop pods.

As for bailing, no, there was a delay, especially on ground units due to the nature of the Exit/Enter animations. Air had the restriction of malfunctions, and that whole pesky falling damage thing. This ties into the pacing problem.

basti · 2012-06-01, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

I'm not going to respond to everything, because its your opinion. But I do think you have missed the jist of my post. That many of the decisions, and the thrust of the game design is not one fitting a War game, it has to many session based design points in it.

I do want to correct you here though. Its my understanding, and experience that the HART was the same for all empires. It was a reinforcement mechanic, not a spawn mechanic. What is meant by that is, HART drops all happened at the same time, regardless of empire. That's why you would occasionally see other empires dropping right next to you. It also had a long timer in between launches. Its not anywhere near the same functionality of individually timed personal drop pods.

As for bailing, no, there was a delay, especially on ground units due to the nature of the Exit/Enter animations. Air had the restriction of malfunctions, and that whole pesky falling damage thing. This ties into the pacing problem.

Did you ever play planetside? Because it doesnt seems like it.

Yes, Those harts were on the same timer for all 3 empires. about 4 minutes. And it was a spawnign mechanic. When dead, you could directly spawn at the Sanc, do a quick jog to the hart, and just wait for it, board it, and drop wherever you want.
And heres the thing: squad spawning is more restricted. You can only drop on your squad leader or a squad mate if your squad leader got the certifications for squad spawning, and maybe he even needs to sacrifice some equipment to allow squad spawning! Not just that, theres even a timer! While we dont know the timer yet, im certain it wont be possible to just drop an entire squad somewhere.

As for bailing, no, there was no delay. Not for air units (falling damage? What falling damage? Where was no falling damage in planetside!) and also not for ground units. True, you had the exit animation, but only if you didnt know how to avoid the exit animation. And yes, that was possible.

Raymac · 2012-06-01, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by basti

You wont even get near a enemys foothold, because the more territory you take into their direction, the harder it gets for you to keep pushing. As you take more and more of their ground, they have less ground to defend, and the third empire is just going to attack you with everything they got, because your empire has no chance to keep everything secure. All they need to do is open a lot of fronts, hack into a lot of different spots, and then just defend that one you didnt manage to resecure. Bang, free territory. And while your empire is back to square one, trying to keep their land intact, the other empire that you tried to push to their foothold just regains its ground.
In the very end, this will result in a very small area of combat, while the rest of the continent remains silent for ages, with only some combat every few weeks, before everything collapes again.

I'm just not really buying this because we saw major ebbs and flows in Planetside 1. In fact, I think it will even be possible for an empire to capture all the territory on a continent. It will be difficult, but so was Sanc locking an empire in PS1 and it happened.

The footholds just insure that no matter what empire you are on, you will have access to any of the continents at any time. You won't be locked out. It doesn't guarantee that your empire will have equal numbers on a continent, just that you can go there. I fail to see how this will break the game. What I do see is veterans clinging to a lame mechanic because it's what they know.

Biohazard · 2012-06-01, 11:44 AM

As far as the foot holds go, I think that for now it is a good idea because there are only 3 continents. I hope that after the game is released, and the devs have had a chance to observe how battles flow around, they may revise the footholds . Right now if we had one foothold per empire, it would be possible to push an entire empire back and corner them.

MrBloodworth · 2012-06-01, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by basti

Did you ever play planetside? Because it doesnt seems like it.

Sure did. 5+ years. I Do also expect a bit different line of discussion from a mod. And yes, the HART is whats known as a Reinforcement Mechanic, meaning a larger group of individuals on the same timer. Spawn mechanics are relating to individuals.

Any way, I wanted to express my disappointment with what the current direction of the overall design seems to be going. You are free to agree or disagree.

Originally Posted by Raymac

The footholds just insure that no matter what empire you are on, you will have access to any of the continents at any time. You won't be locked out. It doesn't guarantee that your empire will have equal numbers on a continent, just that you can go there.

This is the problem with it. You can not loose, witch seems to be a guiding design point for this version of the game. Opening up a new continents and creating a foothold is one of the staples of the original game. In planetside 2, you will never have this experience, all continents will always be open to you. No loss. Your foothold is already established. You can never be locked out ( on the Empire/Territory levels ), this is an aspect of War games. Denial.

Envenom · 2012-06-01, 11:49 AM

Becoming disappointed with a game that is in pre-beta development stages and is 99.9% subject to total change before release. hummmmmmmmmm

Raymac · 2012-06-01, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

This is the problem with it. You can not loose, witch seems to be a guiding design point for this version of the game. Opening up a new continents and creating a foothold is one of the staples of the original game. In planetside 2, you will never have this experience, all continents will always be open to you. No loss. Your foothold is already established. You can never be locked out ( on the Empire/Territory levels ), this is an aspect of War games. Denial.

You win and lose all the freaking time. It's a persistant world so you can't ever really "lose" just like Planetside 1. But you win and lose territory. You win and lose bases. You win and lose firefights. There will be vast amounts of winning and losing. Just get your mind away from the idea that the ONLY way someone wins or loses is by locking a continent. It was lame and accounted for most of the downtime in Planetside 1, and I'm glad to see that mechanic go in Planetside 2.

It is absolutely ridiculous and narrowminded to say "you can't lose".

Turdicus · 2012-06-01, 11:58 AM

Honestly though in a neverending war where soldiers never really die and vehicles can be constructed out of thin air I think comparing planetside 2 to a war game is sort of missing the mark.

Duddy · 2012-06-01, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

This is the problem with it. You can not loose, witch seems to be a guiding design point for this version of the game. Opening up a new continents and creating a foothold is one of the staples of the original game. In planetside 2, you will never have this experience, all continents will always be open to you. No loss. Your foothold is already established. You can never be locked out ( on the Empire/Territory levels ), this is an aspect of War games. Denial.

I'm seeing this again, calling what was one of the more tedious parts of the game a "staple" of the gameplay.

Opening a new continent was tiresome, because more often than not:

You'd be met with little to no opposition, so it was boring
You'd be met with completely overwhelming opposition, you'd lose almost instantly, again boring

Sure you'd get those cases where you got a good fight, but that was the exception for the most part.

That aside, getting sanc locked was not fun. It wasn't fun for the empire that couldn't go anywhere or do anything and it usually wasn't much fun to sit around a warpgate trying to kill the few people that dared to try leave.

Besides, denial still exists. You deny them resources when you own areas instead of the enemy and if you do manage to push them back to their foothold then you can have all the fun you want trying to camp it.

Seems a bit of a misguided/unfounded concern to me.

Raymac · 2012-06-01, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Duddy

I'm seeing this again, calling what was one of the more tedious parts of the game a "staple" of the gameplay.

Opening a new continent was tiresome, because more often than not:

You'd be met with little to no opposition, so it was boring
You'd be met with completely overwhelming opposition, you'd lose almost instantly, again boring

Sure you'd get those cases where you got a good fight, but that was the exception for the most part.

That aside, getting sanc locked was not fun. It wasn't fun for the empire that couldn't go anywhere or do anything and it usually wasn't much fun to sit around a warpgate trying to kill the few people that dared to try leave.

Besides, denial still exists. You deny them resources when you own areas instead of the enemy and if you do manage to push them back to their foothold then you can have all the fun you want trying to camp it.

Seems a bit of a misguided/unfounded concern to me.

VERY WELL SAID. I've tried to express this point a number of times, but you did it much more clearly than I ever have. Thank you.

Masahiko · 2012-06-01, 12:12 PM

Im pretty sure we can point to games and say we dont like X implementation and thus it wont work here. However, i find it hard to believe people are truly losing interest. If you were indeed losing interest you wouldn't be on a forum for a game where the devs post/read/ask questions. You would have moved and said thats not for me. The mere fact you posted what you dont like here, shows that you want this game to do well and are in fact not actually disappointed but more hopeful that things that you dont feel fit the game are changed.

We havent seen anything about logistics and how battles will be won using the new systems other than how they play out in our heads (or on dev battles which are mostly for show). We all see things and say wow X is broken and can never go in without understand how X works and what we dont get by using X. As devoted players we latch on to things we like both from PS1 and other games and make them sacrosanct.

All we can do now is have these discussions about how we think things work now (under the current build) and how it will effect the live release game (while comparing it to the old game). As the game is currently going to be in constant flux theres no real reason to be disappointed, at least until the lock down the code for release.

basti · 2012-06-01, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

I'm just not really buying this because we saw major ebbs and flows in Planetside 1. In fact, I think it will even be possible for an empire to capture all the territory on a continent. It will be difficult, but so was Sanc locking an empire in PS1 and it happened.

The footholds just insure that no matter what empire you are on, you will have access to any of the continents at any time. You won't be locked out. It doesn't guarantee that your empire will have equal numbers on a continent, just that you can go there. I fail to see how this will break the game. What I do see is veterans clinging to a lame mechanic because it's what they know.

Sancing happend, and it wasnt easy, true. But do you know how it happend?

Back in the prime days, it happend because one empire had about 45% or more global pop, and a lot of outfits just did some extra gaming hours to get the thing done.
This was only possible because you had the space for all those people, and could attack different continents. The enemy simply didnt have enough people to stop you.
In Planetside 2, there wont be that space. If a continent is full, its full, done deal.
Still, late night, it will very well be possible to push one empire back into its foothold. Yet it will be pretty much as hard as sanc locking back in the day, and only happen very rarley.
Means you fight over those areas near the enemy foothold only once every few months, and thats the problem.

And Ray, this is not a vets opinion on a new mechanic, this is a leaders POV of what will happen. I simply have loads of expirience leading large groups, being GOTRs TO for a while (555th 4tw!), as well as a CR5 for many many years. I still have my notes here about various tactics for every continent, telling me how stuff played out in the past, what worked and what not. And as i look at them, i see the same pattern over and over: Every time you got equal pop on a continent, the fight started to stand still. Every push into one direction resulted in a strong coutner-Push, as well as the third empire attacking your flanks. Every Push resulted in your empire being pushed back to where it was, or sometimes even further back. Kicking an empire out of a continent while all 3 empires got a poplock on said continent was pretty much impossible, and done rarley. If it was done, then only because the third empire didnt disrupt you kicking the second empire out of its last base, but instead took your based behind your back. Exactly the same will happen in Planetside 2, but even whorse. With the Territory system, you will loose more ground more quickly, as the enemy can not just take only 1 - 3 bases at a time, but a whole lot of different hexes. And if they are really cruel, they just put a hack on every of your hexes. Have fun trying to resecure them all in time, you wont manage that, because they will defend those hexes. And while you are busy trying to keep your crap together, the second empire will just push back, wanting revenge. Suddenly, you are getting pushed back to your foothold, until the other two empires attack each other again.

The only way to avoid that is to not push to fast, but let the enemy push. Keep your ground secure, and let them go after each other. Then strike. With a bit of luck (enemy doesnt push you back), you kicked one empire out (in PS1), and could then deal with the remaining empire. In Planetside 2, you cannot kick them out.

Sooner or later, all of those who lead their empires will realize this, and stop pushing, but rather wait till the enemys push onto each other. But if everyone realized whats going to happen, nobody will do the first strike, and combat will result at around the same areas for days.

For those vets who dont get it: Cyssorside. Think Mukuru, Leza, Tore Nzame Quad, its a perfect example. Whoever got Tore just fotified (its an Interlink, taking it against a enemy poplock was almost impossible, and needed time), and just defended it till the fight happens at Mukuru. THen they quickly grab Leza, clear out Mukuru, and fight for Nzame.

ANother example would be the Baal Dagon Akkan triangle on Ishundar. One got Baal, one got Dagon, one got Akkan. Wait at Akkan till they took each other out at Baal and Dagon, then just grab baal. If you got Dagon, abadon it till the Baal guys go for it, and then let the Akkan guys take Baal. Then retake Dagon and push for Baal.

I could go on.

Gonefshn · 2012-06-01, 12:17 PM

To say it's a war game is fair but in real war there is loads of down time.

Would it be fun to play a game where after a battle you sit around for a day or two waiting for supplies??? I think the word Game says it all.

The current design is taking the interesting exciting aspects of war and taking away the boring non combat aspects of it. It's a game. They don't want you to feel forced out of combat and "gameplay" at any time. The option to go behind your own lines into safe areas, strategize, gather your troops and plan combined arms attacks that will have significant impact is still totally possible.

Things like enter/exit animations and whatever have little to do with the Planetside experience in my mind. To me the game was at it's best when you made plans and saw them put in motion. This is all entirely possible here. Gal drops, max crashes, HUGE tank battalions. STRATEGIES. These things will all still be in the game. How is Battlefield anything like this new design??? Nothing like PS2 exists right now. Combining the sleek feel of Modern AAA shooters with the sandbox world with little limitation on war assets and tools. Nothing is stopping you from planning and strategizing in this game. The spirit of the first game remains for me

I simply have loads of expirience leading large groups, being GOTRs TO for a while (555th 4tw!)

I was GOTR but in Phantom Guard! Rolled with 555th a few times. AWESOME times.

Envenom · 2012-06-01, 12:19 PM

Higby said himself in the recent live stream, why lock players out of the experience they (the devs) have tried to create? They spent all this time making these play areas and they're meant to be used. How does taking them away from players encourage anything positive?