Supreme Court vs. The Fourth Amendment: KO!

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

The prison system is almost immeasurably broken, I agree. If that was in fact what you were alluding, which is what I'm assuming it was. If it wasn't, it still works to bolster my statement.

The prison (and lockup) he was sent to had no reason to believe he was guilty of anything. He hadn't been prosecuted, convicted, sentenced... any of that. This isn't the 17th century. It's not like they had to wait for that information to show up via the Pony Express. There should have been no question at any time of his 'guilt' or 'innocence'. On another thread on this board I happen to know that you, Malorn, are vehemently defending an individual who is being convicted in the public eye of a possible crime not yet investigated.

In this thread's care, this was a man who was definitely innocent, and yet subjected to a humiliating violation of his rights, and the Supreme Court upheld the treatment. That is a bit more severe than being a public pariah. This is the highest court in the land saying 'Even though you were wrongfully arrested and innocent of any crime, we were well without our rights to violate yours.'

If you're going to stand up for the rights of a man you presume is innocent, then stand up for the violated rights of someone we know was innocent.

He was guilty of the crime of speeding, dont get that wrong, he was guilty. He had a chance to contest the ticket in a court but he chose to admit guilt and pay the fine and he did. The court system dropped the ball and thought he hadnt paid. The prison did not know he had paid his punishment. From the point of view of the prison, he was caught evading the punishment for his self-admitted crime.

[Warborn]

What kind of recompense is Florence entitled to for being wrongfully imprisoned and strip-searched twice?

Having this kind of treatment over a supposedly outstanding vehicle fine is pretty brutal. On the other hand, I guess being in prison these days is about dehumanizing and humiliating people, though, so I'm not surprised a 5-4 decision found it reasonable.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Originally Posted by Warborn

What kind of recompense is Florence entitled to for being wrongfully imprisoned and strip-searched twice?

Having this kind of treatment over a supposedly outstanding vehicle fine is pretty brutal. On the other hand, I guess being in prison these days is about dehumanizing and humiliating people, though, so I'm not surprised a 5-4 decision found it reasonable.

Don't forget how we as a culture scratch our heads and ponder as to why people who go to prison for offenses have such a high likelihood to fall back into that behavior once released.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Don't twist my words Guru.

At no point did I say you said anything other than what you did. If what you meant to say was 'don't use my words against me', I cannot make that promise.

Originally Posted by Vash

He was guilty of the crime of speeding, dont get that wrong, he was guilty.

He was not guilty of any crime as of the moment of his arrest. I got a speeding ticket once, seven years ago. I paid it. That does not mean that today I am guilty of speeding; it didn't mean I was guilty the day after the state cashed the check.

At the time that he was arrested, and most definitely during the six days he was locked up and being subjected to humiliating searches, he was not guilty of, nor rightfully suspected of, any crime. The state fucked up their paperwork and he paid for it with his dignity, basic rights (straight from the Bill of Rights) and personal freedoms.

And the Supreme Court said this was A-okay with a 5-4 vote. Hence my unhappiness.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Malorn

You probably freak out about airport body scanners too.

Ridiculous overpriced security theater that can be defeated with several common tactics.

The only change that should have occurred after 9/11 concerning airline security was a reinforced cockpit door that could not be opened from the outside. Another 9/11 will never happen because now people understand the stakes. Hell, they understood them that morning, which is why the one flight failed.



I agree with you on the strip searches though. If you're in jail/prison, a strip search is acceptable. The man should not have been in prison, both because his warrant should have been voided, and more importantly because jail should not even be considered an option for traffic violations, but all that is a different matter.

Simple fact is he sued the wrong people.

Originally Posted by WildGunsTomcat

You can't even fight back against a fucking prisoner without being liable for a lawsuit if they attack you. Thank you liberal agenda for that one.

Of course you're liable for a lawsuit. Its your word against theirs until a court makes a judgement on it. Nobody gets to just dismiss things like that based on the claim of self defense. If you want someone to blame, blame past COs who did abuse their power and made this necessary. Some scandalous shit has gone down in prisons over the years, and not all of it is the fault of the prisoners.


And aren't there video cameras everywhere now, for precisely such a situation?

[Warborn]

I like this Ben Franklin quote and think it applies here:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by Warborn

I like this Ben Franklin quote and think it applies here:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

We are talking about convicted criminals here not the wider population.

He was not guilty of any crime as of the moment of his arrest. I got a speeding ticket once, seven years ago. I paid it. That does not mean that today I am guilty of speeding; it didn't mean I was guilty the day after the state cashed the check.

At the time that he was arrested, and most definitely during the six days he was locked up and being subjected to humiliating searches, he was not guilty of, nor rightfully suspected of, any crime. The state fucked up their paperwork and he paid for it with his dignity, basic rights (straight from the Bill of Rights) and personal freedoms.

And the Supreme Court said this was A-okay with a 5-4 vote. Hence my unhappiness.

He sued the wrong people. He was suing the Jails not the state. If he had sued the state he probably would of won.

[Warborn]

Originally Posted by Vash02

We are talking about convicted criminals here not the wider population.

We're actually talking about a guy who was innocent of any crime, but was held in prison before that was realized by his captors. But I guess it's fine for people arrested for a speeding ticket fine not being paid to be treated like sub-humans (aka. the general prison populace). Guilty until proven innocent, after all, right?

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by Warborn

We're actually talking about a guy who was innocent of any crime, but was held in prison before that was realized by his captors. But I guess it's fine for people arrested for a speeding ticket fine not being paid to be treated like sub-humans (aka. the general prison populace). Guilty until proven innocent, after all, right?

To the prison he was guilty, he admitted his guilt and to the prison he had evaded his punishment. If someone is sentenced to prison and he runs away, they do not bother to have another trial when they catch him, he goes straight to jail.

Mistakes will always happen, perfection cannot be attained. The only thing we can do is make sure the lessons are learned and the victim is properly compensated for his suffering.

You also seem to think speeding is a trivial matter, as someone who has lost two friends due to speeding it is, I assure you, not a trivial matter.

[WildGunsTomcat]

Originally Posted by Vash02

To the prison he was guilty, he admitted his guilt and to the prison he had evaded his punishment. If someone is sentenced to prison and he runs away, they do not bother to have another trial when they catch him, he goes straight to jail.

Mistakes will always happen, perfection cannot be attained. The only thing we can do is make sure the lessons are learned and the victim is properly compensated for his suffering.

You also seem to think speeding is a trivial matter, as someone who has lost two friends due to speeding it is, I assure you, not a trivial matter.

It really is not a trivial matter, you are 100% correct about speeding. Speeding kills a great deal of people.

It was a mistake guys, yes. But at the end of the day, the prison should not have to change their procedures for one man.

Everyone gets strip searched on intake and during visitation times.

It's SOP. The supreme court was correct here. Sorry.

[Sgt Shultz]

Originally Posted by Warborn

We're actually talking about a guy who was innocent of any crime, but was held in prison before that was realized by his captors. But I guess it's fine for people arrested for a speeding ticket fine not being paid to be treated like sub-humans (aka. the general prison populace). Guilty until proven innocent, after all, right?

If he is in prison we are beyond that point so your point is misplaced. You are burning the wrong effigy.

[Malorn]

Meh.