How to actually kill WoW - Page 2

Baneblade · 2012-02-14, 09:09 AM

You can't kill WoW. Sure you can bastardize it into oblivion, but the game itself won't die. The Panda expansion won't hurt it either, in fact I'd wager that it will add 1 million subs by the end of 2012.

Adeon Hawkwood · 2012-02-14, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

For example, a single quest line. You and several other people in the world have to get to the other side of ta broken bridge, but the bridge needs 10 players to voodoo magic on the bridge at the same time for it to be built temporarily so they can cross over to the other side.

Ah, I misunderstood. I see what you're getting at now. The problem MMO developers run into is that a lot of MMO players actually prefer to play solo, especially while leveling up (yes, I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it also happens). Making forced teaming quests, especially ones which gate access to other content as in your bridge example, pisses off players which in turn costs customers. As such most MMOs prefer to make content that requires a team be self-contained as opposed to a part of the main game.

Fenrys · 2012-02-20, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Crator

Consider this, EverQuest released in 1999 and Dark Age of Camelot in 2001; Both are still going to this day. Games that have pioneered the market run for a long time.

Asheron's Call was also released in 1999 and is still running today.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

That is not what I meant by including the player base.

For example, a single quest line. You and several other people in the world have to get to the other side of ta broken bridge, but the bridge needs 10 players to voodoo magic on the bridge at the same time for it to be built temporarily so they can cross over to the other side.

After getting there, these 10 people are there and just had a tiny bit of forced team work. With a dynamic system being implemented, one of those ten guys gets a golden key, this key opens up a door to fight another boss that is a "on the fly" quest (if he logs out give someone else the key, yada yada exploit exploit).

All ten people then seemlessly get a super killer awesome quest that makes them want to stop what their doing and go fight the bowser boss man to get their pretty necklace of magika or whatever.

Asheron's Call had quests that were like that, and the "NPCs" were sometimes (rarely) controlled by devs.

Several quests required multiple parties crawling through different dungeons and pulling levers to open doors for eachother, and some of the items acquired in the lower levels were required for different quests.

Ragefighter · 2012-02-20, 07:46 AM

what kills WoW is going to be the next game blizzard makes that is just like WoW with better graphics. =p

because they will market it through WoW most likely like they are with Diablo 3.
people who sign up for 1 year of WoW get Diablo 3. since apparently lots do this than they will play the new game that I can only assume would be just like WoW but updated graphics. and honestly you can't blame a company if like 10million subs pay monthly to play it (last number i heard, didn't look it up recently).

Geist · 2012-02-20, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Graywolves

I don't understand why companies have this idea of "this is successful so we'll pretty much copy it."

Why would people want to play the same game they've already been playing?

Companies need to stop "thinking safe" and actually make different games.

This is what happens when instead of studios making most of the core design decisions, it's the Corporation(aka EA) and George Lucas. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he had a lot of say in where the game would be heading.

And when people solely interested in profit make creative decisions, the game suffers. But, that's how games are made now. The huge game corporations buy successful studios and pretty much ruin the games due to making decisions they're not qualified to make.

At least we have technological innovation. As long as we and game studios have access to new technology, we'll keep seeing interesting things.

Ailos · 2012-02-20, 01:57 PM

I guess I'm in a slight minority of people, but I really can't find myself addicted to WoW. I play it once a year or so for a month or two (the 2.5 months I played it after Cataclysm came out is the record for me). The thing that attracts me to it is the feeling of complexity - the idea that only a few people on a server can become true experts in a specific skill and others will have to rely on them for something specific and unique. What I absolutely do hate about it is the repetitive factor - kill 10 of these and you'll get this. It's horrendous and is what makes me cancel my sub every time. WoW's storyline is actually quite enticing and detailed, too, but the walls of text that are within the game are a pretty retarted way to tell the story.

So in other words, I play WoW for the story and the feeling of complexity and fictional realism (i.e. I like the level of immersion it produces and makes you think in terms of the world's rules). But other players play it for the sport and the competition - the PvP aspect of it - and that's what ruins the game for me. Obviously, I like competition and player combat - I wouldn't be a PS player otherwise - but its mechanics within WoW is what kills it for me. The fact that in WoW, the outcome of a battle is much more determined by what gear you have than by the player's skill causes people's skill to revolve around knowing how to get the best gear as quickly as possible. For a while, Blizzard tried to combat that by making end-game dungeons rediculously long, and even though they've stepped away from that since, end-game Dungeons and raids are still rediculiously prolonged battles. And everyone is always in one to try and farm the best gear. Thus, not only is the process by which you progress repetitive, but you end up doing the exact same thing over and over again to get the best gear. And eventually you get it. And then what? You go into the arena or a battleground and kill a couple enemies slightly faster. That's it. To me, the time invesment into something like that simply isn't worth it. And that's why I'll subscribe to WoW for a month, read the new story, and call it quits again.

I think SWTOR tried to improve on the story-telling aspect by using BioWare's proven way to tell a good story - through voice acting and cinematics. I haven't played it, but I love the Mass Effect games for that exact reason, I think they've found a very good balance between an incredible story and player-controlled action that is very addicting - much more so than WoW's repetitive mechanic. Albeit, because of the complexity of that mechanic, it seems they didn't have time to develop other aspects of the game to quite as high of an extent as they are in WoW so now less people find it addicting that WoW.

Now, in terms of FPS games, there is stuff that's just as addicting. I find myself playing TF2 quite frequently now days, and if you don't call it repetitive, I don't know what is. But the difference is that the gear there doesn't really matter much. Battles are much more a contest of skill than they are of gear. And the game's sole point is to just make you smile with something silly. That's really it, there isn't much immersion or detail, and to me, it's more addicting that WoW simply because I find myself laughing at what I see on the screen more often that I do in any other game.

So how to kill WoW? Well, it's hard. WoW is addicting to many people for many different reasons because it's a complex game. Blizzard built it up using mechanics and details it had already developed in 3 previous games. And they're still evolving it, making it more complex with each expansions. It's comprised of the story, the professions and the economy, the gear and quest progression, and the PvP competition aspect. It's so big because all those are in the game and they've managed to find that balance where a player can do whichever part s/he enjoys - be it all of those or just one - and still be a valid player in the game. It's not just a matter of coming up with better graphics, but it's a matter of making things be as interwined as they are without having too much of a negative effect on one another. That's why so many developers have tried to steal WoWs glory and all have failed. They all fail for the same reason that those Chinese fake iPads and iPhones do - they're just not the legitimate thing. Like Blizzard, Apple was sucessful with its brand of products because they saw an opportunity to innovate the market and they did. They put in a lot of effort and research into making it happen the right way from the start. And now, they have so much experience in doing what they do that ousiders are unlikely to catch up. Apple didn't make the iPhone because they knew it would be a success - they made it because they wanted to create a new piece of consumer technology, and it so happened that it's so incredibly successful.

So to answer your question: how do we kill WoW? With uncomprimising creativity and innovation. SWTOR brought some of that in, but at the cost of some of the game's complexity. WoW, like PS1 was designed for the technology that was available in 2004. Although Blizzard has done a good job in trying to update it, an old game is still and old game. I mean, I still play the original StarCraft, but it's not quite the same as the fresh one. Eventually, the technology behind WoW will just be too old and unattractive. Newer and more enticing mechanics and complexities will become possible, in the same way that we are now baffled by Forgelight on a daily basis, compared to PS1. WoW will probably only be killed by Blizzard in it own right once they've come up with that more modern touch. Or perhaps someone else will first. But here again, technology is just a tool. The next trully massively successful MMO isn't going to be successful because it's based off of WoW. It's going to be successful in its own right, using technology, mechanics and details that surpass WoW because of the new technology.

Probably sooner rather than later, WoW will start getting boring for a lot of people, not the least because of its graphics and the fact that you have to do so much reading to get through. The servers will become empty, and Blizzard will move it off to its "don't give a damn about anymore" coffers, but its legacy as THE addicting MMO will never be erased. In fact, I forsee a future where I'll be telling grandkids "You guys don't read enough. In my day, our games had a lot more text and richer linguistics and better storylines. Go read something good! Go play WoW!"

Baneblade · 2012-02-20, 06:16 PM

I play WoW, but I don't do quests passed lvl 10 unless I have a specific goal in mind. I pvp and dungeon crawl, all of which are much improved over how it was handled in LK, BC, or even Vanilla.

So really, there is no reason to do mundane quests unless you are staying away from pvp (why anyone here would is beyond me) or avoid dungeons (I can see why after you've already run them a million times, but at least they aren't quests).

Dungeons also have the generic dungeon quests right inside now, so you don't even have to leave your race's capitol city ever, except to gather materials for a profession.

Graywolves · 2012-02-20, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Geist

This is what happens when instead of studios making most of the core design decisions, it's the Corporation(aka EA) and George Lucas. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he had a lot of say in where the game would be heading.

And when people solely interested in profit make creative decisions, the game suffers. But, that's how games are made now. The huge game corporations buy successful studios and pretty much ruin the games due to making decisions they're not qualified to make.

At least we have technological innovation. As long as we and game studios have access to new technology, we'll keep seeing interesting things.

It just seems like such a horrible idea to me. "This game was successful, let's make that game again but put our logo on it."

Doesn't somebody somewhere go "wait a minute...if our game is just like this other one...why would people want to play ours?"

It's like they intentionally want to force a competition that they can't win.

Baneblade · 2012-02-20, 06:28 PM

The other problem is that there is a lack of imagination or outright revolution from any of the 'WoW Killers'. None of them really put anything new into their games that WoW didn't just outright steal or dismiss entirely. Rift had some neat ideas, but the repetition basically ended it before you got out of the noob zone. TOR is a great single player game, but a terrible MMORPG. If the level grind in WoW was like TOR's, WoW would have 40% more subs easily.

Geist · 2012-02-21, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Graywolves

It just seems like such a horrible idea to me. "This game was successful, let's make that game again but put our logo on it."

Doesn't somebody somewhere go "wait a minute...if our game is just like this other one...why would people want to play ours?"

It's like they intentionally want to force a competition that they can't win.

Don't forget the mountains of evidence supporting that claim. How many "WoW Killers" have there been now? How many are still around? And has WoW been killed yet?

People just don't fucking learn. But at least I have PS2 to look forward to. Oh PS2, your so pretty.

Warborn · 2012-02-21, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ragefighter

what kills WoW is going to be the next game blizzard makes that is just like WoW with better graphics. =p

Titan probably won't be just like WoW with better graphics. Actually, I imagine it won't be much like WoW at all. Anymore than Warcraft 3 was like Starcraft. The reason Blizzard makes good games is because they're good at making games. I firmly believe there is only room for one WoW clone, and WoW itself is it. I think trying to one-up themselves would be an incredibly dumb idea, and so I think Titan will be something else entirely.

Ragefighter · 2012-02-21, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Titan probably won't be just like WoW with better graphics. Actually, I imagine it won't be much like WoW at all. Anymore than Warcraft 3 was like Starcraft. The reason Blizzard makes good games is because they're good at making games. I firmly believe there is only room for one WoW clone, and WoW itself is it. I think trying to one-up themselves would be an incredibly dumb idea, and so I think Titan will be something else entirely.

agree

I mean years from now maybe they throw in WoW2 or something, WoW is not going anywhere soon.

can't wait to give diablo 3 a play, wasn't in beta. loved the Diablo franchise.

Xaine · 2012-02-22, 05:24 AM

A game like Eve, or Darkfall - that isn't super complex and impossible to get into and that had a learning wall, rather than a learning curve.

Something where players fight each other for territory, but actually have something to lose.

Give me this MMO, and let me play it now.

(Check out Arche Age by the way, looks good)

WaryWizard · 2012-02-23, 06:15 PM

I never really found EVE to be hard whenever I played. Granted I didn't play for too long (a month or so). I don't know if I just didn't play to the learning "wall" or it just never phased me. My friend tried, and wasn't able to get into it. He said it was "overwhelming" with all the different possibilities. He tried doing all the different starter missions. mining security exploration etc.

Anyway. As for a WOW killer being made. I could see a great mmo game with a playstyle "similar" to TES series. Just something where I can do whatever I want such as in EVE, but with a fantasy view in it. No real "levels" just different sets of gear, but a skilled player with weak stuff could own a newbert with good stuff.

That is my view of a WOW killer. Planetside2 could give it a hit, but to kill it you need to be in a similar setting(fantasy based mmo)

Fenrys · 2012-02-23, 11:33 PM

I don't think it matters how great a game you make. The people who are still playing WoW probably do so because they have friends that also play. It's the same reason there's been such an uproar about region locking. Who you play with is more important in the long run than what you're playing.

Killing WoW with a superior game is off the table and the best anyone can hope for is rivaling them in terms of population and longevity.