The Road map and why it doesnt work! - Page 2

Pella · 2013-02-04, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Stellarthief

You should also reread your post. "As untimely these outfits keep players ingame and understand what PS2 should be. ". What PS2 should be is what devs have planned, mapped out, etc + feedback from the players. The larger outfits really couldn't say and have no qualification to say what the game "should be" unless you want to talk actual real world money investment.

It's also rather short sighted if you think these big outfits keep people in game. Except on these forums I have never heard of any of the outfits you mentioned and I couldn't care less about them really. PS2 has some nice designs so that such organisations don't dictate the motion of the world like in so many other MMOs.

If you haven't heard of BRTD/AT/666 Devil dogs. I am sorry you have no idea what your talking about, Or simply don't play this game. If that is so, This topic doesn't concern you. And reconfirms my point.

I'm not here to glorify these outfits. But If an outfit carrys 300 Active members. That itself should carry a hefty weight when deciding on game changes. Do you keep them happy or some idiot who has played for 5 minutes?

Stellarthief · 2013-02-04, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Pella

If you haven't heard of BRTD/AT/666 Devil dogs. I am sorry you have no idea what your talking about, Or simply don't play this game. If that is so, This topic doesn't concern you. And reconfirms my point.

I'm not here to glorify these outfits. But If an outfit carrys 300 Active members. That itself should carry a hefty weight when deciding on game changes. Do you keep them happy or some idiot who has played for 5 minutes?

It's these kinds of statements that show that outfits don't/shouldn't be tapped for mechanic/game direction. Because I don't know them I have no clue about the game obviously...

My outfit also has several hundred members. I wouldnt trust any of them to impact anything game play or mechanic wise... Thanks.

P.S. if you didnt know, thousands of people play this game.. a few hundred active in an outfit doesn't give the outfit leader or leaders any further right/privilege, or qualifications to vote, dictate or otherwise impact the future of the game any more than the next guy.

*edit to make it clear* I am not saying every resource shouldn't be tapped. Guild feedback, player feedback, in game tracking mechanics, etc. Every good developer uses all the tools at hand. But to give 1 particular party more weight in this department because of a, b, or c when they are not the majority of players and quite often have opposing views from the next large party is not good sense. Listen to everyone, equally, then make up your mind. That's only good logic.

Pella · 2013-02-04, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Stellarthief

It's these kinds of statements that show that outfits don't/shouldn't be tapped for mechanic/game direction. Because I don't know them I have no clue about the game obviously...

My outfit also has several hundred members. I wouldnt trust any of them to impact anything game play or mechanic wise... Thanks..

P.S. if you didnt know, thousands of people play this game.. a few hundred active in an outfit doesn't give the outfit leader or leaders any further right/privilege, or qualifications to vote, dictate or otherwise impact the future of the game any more than the next guy.

It was an example. there are many other big outfits. But i am talking about PS1 veteran outfits who's leaders understand what this game is and where it should go.

Stellarthief · 2013-02-04, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Pella

It was an example. there are many other big outfits. But i am talking about PS1 veteran outfits who's leaders understand what this game is and where it should go.

This is PS2 not PS1.

Veteran outfits leaders of PS1 understand where PS1 should have gone/did go. Not where PS2 should go sorry. This is not the same game.

People keep failing to make this distinction in GW2 also. GW2 is not GW1 and should NEVER go in the same direction as that game did.

More Examples:

Asheron's Call 1 veterans tried to make Asheron's Call 2 go back into the way of 1 after some troubles. Further helped kill the game.

EverQuest 2 should never follow how EverQuest 1 was.

(And yes, I played PS1 from about 2003-2005. So not a 10 year vet like some, but I played the original game for a few years)

Pella · 2013-02-04, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Stellarthief

This is PS2 not PS1.

Veteran outfits leaders of PS1 understand where PS1 should have gone/did go. Not where PS2 should go sorry. This is not the same game.

People keep failing to make this distinction in GW2 also. GW2 is not GW1 and should NEVER go in the same direction as that game did.

Honestly.. stop.

Stellarthief · 2013-02-04, 08:27 AM

Glad to.

Enjoy your road map.

Thunderhawk · 2013-02-04, 08:28 AM

Guys seriously relax.....

The point being made here is that a voting system allows "anyone" to have a weight in a democracy when it comes to voting for something.

The point is, someone who has 1-2 days /played under their belt shouldn't be equal so someone who has say, 10+ days played under their belt.

They don't know the game well enough yet.

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

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Now all the 10+ day players are free to disagree and argue and vote for different things all they want, thats fair enough.

Stellarthief · 2013-02-04, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

Guys seriously relax.....

The point being made here is that a voting system allows "anyone" to have a weight in a democracy when it comes to voting for something.

The point is, someone who has 1-2 days /played under their belt shouldn't be equal so someone who has say, 10+ days played under their belt.

They don't know the game well enough yet.

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

----------

Now all the 10+ day players are free to disagree and argue and vote for different things all they want, thats fair enough.

I get your point. More well spoken. But that is also simply not true and an oversimplification.

As I've said before, I've played MMOs for 14 years now, since 1999. I have known people who have played for literally thousands of hours in game and still at the end had no clue about mechanics because they simple don't care. They just play the game and don't worry about these things. My wife is one of them, she leaves the mechanics to me, who I mostly leave to a friend of mine. Many people simply don't care how CoF acts, how bloom acts, how this affects that and what this or that does. They just wanna point, click, boom and the results are what is impotant to them.

Likewise, I know people who don't spend much time in game (RL constraints) but they spend more than double the in game time out of game researching mechanics, searching reddit, making builds and half the in game time is spent testing that stuff. These are people that don't want to point click boom, they want to know what point click boom does what it does and how to make it point click boom boom.

One of my points was that, time invested does not equal knowledge and it never has. It's a reasonable assumption, but not one I, as a developer, would lend so much weight.

The best way is to simply listen to everyone, filter the ideas and then go from there. Perhaps the most time consuming and probably the most stressful. But adding weight and excluding people's ideas based on something such as play time, not being in a well known outfit, etc. is super short sighted.

VR Draco · 2013-02-04, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

Nope ^^

First of all, the voting-process is only a HINT, not a decision. Ideas with less than 1000 votes will not be less important than those with 10k.

BUT to say a player with only 1d played should have no opinion (exaggerated) is ridiculous.

First of all, you have NO IDEA how much experience someone has with other FPS, which could give another perspective.
Then FRESH ideas are a great thing in development. New players could get ideas an old player would never think of.

The thing is VALIDATION...and it is no matter of time oder whatever, everybody should be allowed to give his/her opinion and the only one who is allowed to validate this, are the Devs.
Older players could comment those ideas and say what they think, but to say only old players should be elective is stupid.

Pella · 2013-02-04, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

Guys seriously relax.....

The point being made here is that a voting system allows "anyone" to have a weight in a democracy when it comes to voting for something.

The point is, someone who has 1-2 days /played under their belt shouldn't be equal so someone who has say, 10+ days played under their belt.

They don't know the game well enough yet.

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

----------

Now all the 10+ day players are free to disagree and argue and vote for different things all they want, thats fair enough.

Pritty much Bang on. I only mentioned these bigger outfits as there leaders have gone from PS1 through to PS2 And there ideas that of mine and many other vets.

Pella · 2013-02-04, 08:58 AM

First of all, you have NO IDEA how much experience someone has with other FPS, which could give another perspective.
Then FRESH ideas are a great thing in development. New players could get ideas an old player would never think of.

The thing is VALIDATION...and it is no matter of time oder whatever, everybody should be allowed to give his/her opinion and the only one who is allowed to validate this, are the Devs.
Older players could comment those ideas and say what they think, but to say only old players should be elective is stupid..

Everyone is are entitled to there opinion yes.

But i play CS:GO competitively. Now i wouldn't expect my opinion on that game to weigh more than the pros who came from Source and 1.6.. Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

Stellarthief · 2013-02-04, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by VR Draco

Nope ^^

First of all, the voting-process is only a HINT, not a decision. Ideas with less than 1000 votes will not be less important than those with 10k.

BUT to say a player with only 1d played should have no opinion (exaggerated) is ridiculous.

First of all, you have NO IDEA how much experience someone has with other FPS, which could give another perspective.
Then FRESH ideas are a great thing in development. New players could get ideas an old player would never think of.

The thing is VALIDATION...and it is no matter of time oder whatever, everybody should be allowed to give his/her opinion and the only one who is allowed to validate this, are the Devs.
Older players could comment those ideas and say what they think, but to say only old players should be elective is stupid.

Spot on!

VR Draco · 2013-02-04, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Pella

Everyone is are entitled to there opinion yes.

But i play CS:GO competitively. Now i wouldn't expect my opinion on that game to weigh more than the pros who came from Source and 1.6.. Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

This is not YOUR decision, it is the decision of the DEVELOPER, whom opinion is more valid than others.

If SoE don't want a pseudo-elite game, then they should listen to the "casuals".
If they only listen to the PS1-vets, then PS2 will die like PS1, because only the vets want to play it.

Stellarthief · 2013-02-04, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pella

Everyone is are entitled to there opinion yes.

But i play CS:GO competitively. Now i wouldn't expect my opinion on that game to weigh more than the pros who came from Source and 1.6.. Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

e-sport direction and rules/adjustments is a bit different. Same with tight focus competitive gaming. Especially small scale gaming matches. The pros have more weight and rightly so.

IF PS2 manages to e-sport it up, I am all for the "pros" and the people heavily involved in the e-sport part defining how that part of the game goes.

But in the normal MMOFPS part of PS2, I don't agree with this. Everyone's opinions and ideas are just as valid and they shouldn't filter peoples suggestions based on such things as days played, experience in PS2, etc. before reading or having their computers analyse the idea. Book cover judging.

Pella · 2013-02-04, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by VR Draco

This is not YOUR decision, it is the decision of the DEVELOPER, whom opinion is more valid than others.

If SoE don't want a pseudo-elite game, then they should listen to the "casuals".
If they only listen to the PS1-vets, then PS2 will die like PS1, because only the vets want to play it.

What are you talking about?

Who said they dont want a Pseudo-Elite game? There entering into the Esports domain. Which is filled with it.

Reread what i am talking about.