Time to Kill(TTK) needs to be increased. - Page 2

Mietz · 2013-02-21, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Try harder lil guy.

Say hi to my ignore list.

Assist · 2013-02-21, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

Do we really need yet another TTK discussion? These always go exactly the same way every time. This needs to be killed before it turns into another shit throwing contest like the last 5 topics.

I don't see why someone would turn this into personal attacks. It's about a general game mechanic, not about a certain weapon/situation being overpowered.
I don't see the argument FOR a low TTK, if someone could lay that out for me.

bpostal · 2013-02-21, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Tatwi

Personally, I think your monitor should explode in your face if you jump around like a tool when people are shooting at you, in any game.

First it should fall into your lap. THEN explode. To ensure that the bunny hopping isn't spread to another generation of tools.

As to the topic of TTK, I think it could stand to be increased slightly but I doubt we'll ever see it happen.

Ghoest9 · 2013-02-21, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mietz

Say hi to my ignore list.

This really hurts - coming from the first guy in the thread to resort to personal attacks.

/em rolls eyes

AThreatToYou · 2013-02-21, 07:22 PM

Would be alright if they fix hit registration as well. I stood 5 feet behind a guy today and got the X for hitting him (with the TMG-50) at least 10 times, but when he turned around and killed me he was at half health. Other times people will drop dead in an instant, without being headshot. It don't make sense!

I believe this is an instance of the HA shield sometimes not displaying, but still being there.

Rothnang · 2013-02-21, 07:43 PM

I think slightly longer TTK would promote using cover rather than making it less desirable. Right now you can kill people so quickly that you can comfortably maintain a K/D of 1 just by charging in and blasting the first guy you see in the face. It takes so little to kill people that 2, 3, 4 people shooting back at you doesn't make it impossible for you to score a kill before you die as long as you have the initiative in the fight.

Stardouser · 2013-02-21, 07:51 PM

Part of the problem is that TTK used to be good, but it creeps faster and faster. At least in my opinion, every time they balance a faction, they do it by making the other two faction's weapons deadlier, and over time that makes the TTK lower and lower.

Tatwi · 2013-02-21, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

I believe this is an instance of the HA shield sometimes not displaying, but still being there.

In this instance, he should have been dead before he turned around, I got that many "hits" on him on my client (he was standing still and did not know that I had crept up right behind him).

Babyfark McGeez · 2013-02-21, 09:07 PM

The display of the health/shield on the "guy who killed you" screen is bugged.

I had that happen countless times, died to a guy who i pumped full of (space) lead, the death-screen showing him with full health/shield, yet my comrades telling me he was actually only having a sliver of health left.
Also getting "Critical Assistance" XP a second later gave it away.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, i'm also in favor of rising the TTK (all across the board actually, including maxes, vehicles and aircraft), because i think it would result in a more "strategic" approach to a fight, just charging forward guns blazing would become less effective as it is now (i don't want to know how many kills i got by just suicide bombing rooms full of enemies).

psijaka · 2013-02-21, 09:25 PM

Oh no not another one of these threads. Can't we just refer to Figment's summary from the last one and save ourselves the bother.

Edit - here it is.

Summary "Pro-low TTK" side:
Pro-low ttk tend to argue from a perfect ttk, where they like a low ttk because it rewards flanking positioned troops with an execution. They deem this rewarding smart positional play (rewarding primarily the player on the move, actively seeking to flank an enemy position).

It is argued current situational awareness and ttk length suffice for all decision making that happens during a fight as it is not considered there are many decisions to make in the first place.

They also consider defense play to benefit more from close to instakill ttk, assuming the defender gets the drop on the enemy at all times. They also claim it benefits small groups, without considering more volume of fire kills more rapidly at low ttks and the death of one on the smaller team more quickly increases the power distance.

They claim that a slightly longer ttk would not matter, yet a longer ttk would adversely affect chances of survival for a small group, argueing the leverage of more hitpoints would bolden larger groups (which the opposition agrees with when TTK gets significantly higher than the impact of focused fire on a chokepoint - the pro-short TTK assumes any increase does this).

It is also claimed adverse game effects of short ttk are down to bad map layout design only. Note that nobody disagrees that the layouts are bad.

Furthermore, it is claimed that if you don't get instakilled, you still can't actually return (much) more fire than if you are not instakilled, hence rendering a 20-30% ttk/health (depending on who you ask) increase moot. Given this notion, some claim the opposition must be longing for drastic increases of the perfect ttk in the order of several seconds to the perfect TTK.

It is suggested the player gets more satisfaction out of a short ttk by being rewarded for active movement and getting the drop on others. Longer ttks are seen as a cheap way of overcoming a situational awareness deficiency, where it is assumed this deficiency is at all times the fault of and therefore the responsibility of the player. Hence it is argued the person who got the drop outplayed the opponent.

Summary "Pro-bit-longer-TTK" side:
Pro-bit-longer-ttk want a slightly longer ttk, particularly, a longer practical ttk, since they expect to be allowed to respond when they are engaged, rewarding reflexes, allowing to learn, gain situational awareness during a fight and apply it, allowing to enter and exit rooms, stimulating fights, overall rewarding the consistent better player over the ganking of people who either intentionally or by luck flank another player. This should stimulate the feeling the player did "all they could" and was defeated by the enemy player, rather than the game. Currently, it is considered the other way around.

They expect flanking to be rewarded with a ttk advantage of starting the fight, but do not expect that to also end the fight as this would make random encounters have more random outcomes, not rewarding the actual "better players". Where better player is defined by better shot, decent reflexes and trying to play for reaching objectives and therefore having to move through potential crossfires.

It is argued focused fire is more effective and defenders can recuperate better when ttk is high enough for two players in a defensive position (ergo from cover) to effect a faster kill, rather than waste bullets on the same target and risk random and lucky (head)shots to drop defenders. TTK should still be low enough to control a chokepoint. It is argued that with too low a TTK, especially AoE, it is too easy to clean out a room from defenders and holding an area is impossible. It is argued that good positioning should benefit defenders and flanking shouldn't be extremely easy or too rewarding, since flanking should make the better player already win anyway as the player would have the drop advantage.

It is in fact argued that if a TTK becomes too long, then who initiated the fight and from where becomes too irrelevant, however, it is currently seen as too relevant.

They expect players to get a chance to move to or in between cover, creating more chance to impact the outcome of the fight with skills, timing, reflexes, steady aim and situational awareness generation during the engagement, starting at the first hit. It s claimed that a small increase of ttk helps small groups and defenders hold choke points, until the point where despite of the chokepoint, endurance allows a storming of a position where the position is overrun with ease.

They are also concerned with the over time negative impact of fast ttk area of effect weaponry, where they expect these to get consistently more used to the point of spam, requiring minimal skill, risk and exposure. Especially when used in numbers and considering the geometry and flanking options in game, where it is suggested the indefensible situation largely created by the geometry and layout is aggravated by a low ttk as this reduces the time you have to react to an incursion or threat coming from one of the directions you could not see coming, even if you actively look around. Particularly when tasked with holding a room that is setup for crossfires by the game.

The requested ttk increase is in the order of half a second to a second, depending on weapon: on average shorter than PS1, longer than PS2. Either way bringing it closer to the current HA ttks.

It is argued that a short ttk leads to less satisfying and competitive gameplay, as the player felt to have wasted time, is defeated by the game, not an opponent and/or not having had a chance to do anything about it since the first to hit wins. It is suggested this turns every engagement into an arbitrary dice roll, as it is considered impossible to have complete situational awareness at this time and therefore not the player's fault. The player, it is argued, should thus have a chance to rectify this deficiency.

/thread
/wishful thinking

Sturmhardt · 2013-02-21, 10:33 PM

I agree, TTK became too low. It was fun in the beginning when everyone was a noob, but on Miller you die pretty fast since everyone had some months training and uses the right weapon attachments. You hear a weapon and you are dead and that's not fun because there is no time to react. I say increase the ttk and the magazine sizes (you have to increase them too if you lower the damage) by at least 20%, it would make ps2 a better game.

.sent via phone.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-02-21, 11:12 PM

I totally agree that the ttk needs a bit more time.

typhaon · 2013-02-22, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

I believe this is an instance of the HA shield sometimes not displaying, but still being there.

I don't know. It might be related to the bug I sometimes experience with the NC MAX, while fighting infantry. Mysteriously every scat/hack blast will just miss for some period of time... even though based on what you're seeing on the screen, there is no way they could miss.

ex. earlier I podded onto a pad of an air tower... I turn around and see a TR heavy about 2 MAX lengths away staring at me... he starts shooting me and backing up... I start walking toward him with both Hacksaws blazing..... 24 shots at a perfect killing range... not a single one hit... he kept shooting me and I died before reload finished.

I don't care what shield he has going... nothing would survive that assault.

I sometimes have a version of this where 10 or 12 blasts will miss... then they will start hitting, but I'd never seen all 24!

I've got to believe he must've seen something else happening on his screen, but I didn't think to ask him until about 15 minutes later when he'd already logged off. I wonder if he was 'actually' in another location other than what I was seeing on my screen... or something like that.

You might try just asking your target the next time something funky happens. Won't fix the situation, but it might give you a clue what is going wrong.

Dougnifico · 2013-02-22, 05:10 AM

Nope. TTK is perfectly fine where it is. No jumping a circle strafing crap. Also remember that high TTK only appeals to niche market and the majority of the overall gaming community wants low TTK. Look at MW4 vs. Halo 3. There is a reason why low TTK games like COD and BF3 dominate, people overall prefer low TTK. Also, for a shitty player, low TTK allows them to be effective more easily.

Also the devs have stated that higher TTK isn't going to happen. Can we just put the final nail in this coffin already?

Gatekeeper · 2013-02-22, 05:20 AM

I'd agree with those saying that the TTK was fine (actually, a little fast for my taste, but ok) but that it's creeping lower and lower all the time.

Players increasing in skill, unlocking deadlier weapons and more attachments and particularly the introduction of new, even lower TTK weapons like shotguns and SMGs all bring the average TTK lower.

I wouldn't argue for a huge change to TTK, but increasing overall TTK a little so that you have some chance to react to shotguns and SMGs would improve the game IMO.

Also: fixing the death screen so it reliably shows your enemy's actual health and shields would be nice. I'm sure this is winding up a lot of people.