What a travisty - Page 2

Vash02 · 2012-06-28, 01:21 PM

When states force you to buy car insurance that's fine but when the government forces you to buy health insurance its the end of the nation?
States: "it's a practical law"
Federal government: "SOCIALISM!!!!!11!"

It's all about winning and losing in Washington now. It's not about the welfare of the people.

Yes, now that everyone in the US will have comprehensive healthcare, the welfare of the people has plummeted

Exmortius · 2012-06-28, 01:23 PM

last i checked europe isn't doing all that well. your countries are bailing each other out atm. spain and greece are just the beginning. this was another attempt for them to turn the states into more of a clone of a slow failing europe. you may be sick of it but we're sick of our country being turned into something against our will. majority of americans do not want this, we know what will come with this decision. i'm in my 30s now and i'm definitely concerned at what is slowly going on with the states. you can either blow it off or be apathetic or speak up. most of us speak up and state our opinion or displeasure with what's going on. it might not be long before that is ruled illegal or a tax levied if this keeps up......sadly.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-06-28, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Exmortius

last i checked europe isn't doing all that well. your countries are bailing each other out atm. spain and greece are just the beginning. this was another attempt for them to turn the states into more of a clone of a slow failing europe. you may be sick of it but we're sick of our country being turned into something against our will. majority of americans do not want this, we know what will come with this decision. i'm in my 30s now and i'm definitely concerned at what is slowly going on with the states. you can either blow it off or be apathetic or speak up. most of us speak up and state our opinion or displeasure with what's going on. it might not be long before that is ruled illegal or a tax levied if this keeps up......sadly.

Are you talking to me? I was born, raised, and currently live in New Hampshire. I'm as American as mom and apple pie.

Though to be honest, I'm not all that patriotic. Hard to be after you realize we're all of us little more than clever apes all crowded together on a small blue rock hurtling through the bleak dark reaches of space. As if our stupid little teams matter worth a damn.

Warborn · 2012-06-28, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Exmortius

last i checked europe isn't doing all that well.

This has nothing to do with health care. Americans spend 2x as much on their health care for worse results. The issues Europe is having aren't because people having health care is expensive. If it were, the US would be a post-apocalyptic wasteland of roving gangs and violent anarchy by now.

LegioX · 2012-06-28, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Vash02

When states force you to buy car insurance that's fine but when the government forces you to buy health insurance its the end of the nation?
States: "it's a practical law"
Federal government: "SOCIALISM!!!!!11!"

Yes, now that everyone in the US will have comprehensive healthcare, the welfare of the people has plummeted

If i have to explain this one more time to you idiot liberals....

Car insurance is a not a right! It's a privilege. Does the gov't force you to buy a car? USE UR DAMN BRAIN.

aceshigh · 2012-06-28, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Vash02

When states force you to buy car insurance that's fine but when the government forces you to buy health insurance its the end of the nation?
States: "it's a practical law"
Federal government: "SOCIALISM!!!!!11!"

Yes, now that everyone in the US will have comprehensive healthcare, the welfare of the people has plummeted

What a ridiculous argument. Driving is a privilege, not a right. You don't have to carry auto insurance unless you are driving. Even then, you don't have to carry it for your own car, but to cover liabilities for others.

Saifoda · 2012-06-28, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by warborn

this has nothing to do with health care. Americans spend 2x as much on their health care for worse results. The issues europe is having aren't because people having health care is expensive. If it were, the us would be a post-apocalyptic wasteland of roving gangs and violent anarchy by now.

yes bring the anarchy!!

edit: Also, yeah, the car insurance thing is an incredibly fallible argument. Did you know that you don't need a driver's license or to be of any age to drive a vehicle on your own property? Driver's licenses are needed because the government (really meaning the people) fund the roads -- they are state-owned (at various levels) property and such the state(s) can govern them as they so choose.

Zolan · 2012-06-28, 02:16 PM

The SCOTUS made several distinctions.

1. The mandate was upheld only as a tax. (Congress' authority to tax)

2. The commerce clause does not allow congress to force you to buy something.

That Clause authorizes Congress to regulate interstate commerce, not to order individuals to engage it. In this case, however, it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress's power to tax."

- Justice Roberts

3. They also struck down the attempt to force the states to expand medicaid. Washington had told the states they would take away all medicaid funding if they didn't comply with the new program, which is not constitutional.

Hopefully this helps everyone understand. It's less a victory for democrats, and more like a Trojan horse.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-06-28, 02:39 PM

Right, it's important that we're keeping score properly, Zolan. We would have for the game to end only to find out that someone hadn't been keeping close attention to the tallies. There needs to be a clear winner.

CutterJohn · 2012-06-28, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

Funny how the downfall of America will be outlined in one word. "TAX"

So what does this mean? Gov't can do anything it pleases to the population as long as its a tax? FML

For the most part, yes. Congress has virtually unlimited powers for taxation. Had it been labeled the tax it obviously is from the start it would have never even reached SCOTUS. But it also wouldn't have passed, since the T word is verboten in todays politics. Dirty pool, but legit nonetheless.

They can tax whatever the hell they please, and not tax whatever the hell they please.

Originally Posted by aceshigh

How could requiring someone to carry health insurance be considered constitutional? It blows my mind.

ETA: travesty too

You know what would blow your mind more? They could have outlawed the medical insurance industry and instituted state funded single payer UHC, and it would not have even reached SCOTUS. The constitution very explicitely gives congress the power to levy taxes to provide for the general welfare of the people.

This is how medicare operates, and is a settled argument. The more conservative compromise was the questionable one.

Zolan · 2012-06-28, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

Right, it's important that we're keeping score properly, Zolan. We would have for the game to end only to find out that someone hadn't been keeping close attention to the tallies. There needs to be a clear winner.

It was just an observational statement regarding who will be more adversely affected by the ruling in the upcoming election.

Try not take it as anything more.

ziegler · 2012-06-28, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Im completely baffled how they construe it as a "tax" when the lawmakers and Obama went through great lengths to say it wasnt. That too is bad for Obama because now they can pin a Tax hike on him. And what a horrible precedent this sets. The govenrment can now use this to justify us purchasing any good or service since it is a "tax increase to those who choose not to buy it". Supreme court epic fail.

Go back and watch the SCOTUS hearings.

The Justices themselves had to correct the Lawyer arguing for the Law, as he kept calling it a penalty. The republicans called it a tax, and the democrats insisted it wasnt, go back and watch the Obama/Stephonolppu=oaiueoaiuweyropa;lyo985 interview. Obama practically chastises George for calling it a tax.
If it was a penalty, it would be unconstitutional.
But as a Tax...it's perfectly fine.

What the SCOTUS did today was tell the Congress is that you can impose anything on the people you want, so long as you call it a tax. They also enshrined the power to tax non-activity.
If you dont buy florida oranges, pay a tax, if you dont buy a Chevy Volt, pay a tax. If you dont have a M1 carbine and 100 rounds stored correctly on your premises....pay a tax......

The precedence set today is bad...very bad and we, The People, will end up being abused with it by both sides of the aisle.

Vash02 · 2012-06-28, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

If i have to explain this one more time to you idiot liberals....

Car insurance is a not a right! It's a privilege. Does the gov't force you to buy a car? USE UR DAMN BRAIN.

lol, having a car is a privilege in America? Maybe if you live in a city, but hardly anywhere else.
So what do people do if the necessities of life are outside of reasonable walking distance? "Its your privilege to be able to go and get food for yourself and family. Therefore we shall force you to buy insurance on your only practicable means of transportation."

Maybe the Tea Party should hijack and cargo ship and toss off a few crates of drugs.

Neurotoxin · 2012-06-28, 03:36 PM

Just looking for an excuse to fine and arrest people. It feeds the coffers, it feeds the jails (which happens when you don't pay that fine), and doesn't come at any penalty to the government or insurance companies. Incarceration and medical care are both for-profit systems, and this act of Capitalism further reinforces profits from these industries.

This is not Socialism, this is the opposite of it. Socialism would provide free medical care to everyone, rather than letting demanding that everyone pay into a for-profit industry. Let us be completely clear, this Capitalism exploiting the working class in every way possible, there is not an ounce of Socialism in demanding everyone pay for insurance.

People's right are under attack.
What to do? stand up, fight back!

Originally Posted by Exmortius

forcing a person to buy something is capitalism pure and simple.

Fixed. Socialism doesn't charge for medical care, everyone has access, but the cost of medical care for all will be reflected in everyone's taxes. Socialism also doesn't require co-pay, deductibles, or any of that other bullshit.

Anyone who thinks Obama's health care policy is anything except Capitalism needs to seriously learn the difference between the two systems. Socialism doesn't seek to profit of it's citizens for basic necessities, while Capitalism does it for EVERYTHING: housing, food, education, medical care, basic transportation, etc.

Socialism is not State Capitalism, either. The point of making medical care a non-profit industry is that it takes out all the proprietary expenses. Every medicine, every tool, every research paper, costs so much money to access because all of the manufacturers are private companies seeking profit. Demanding that no profit may be made from things that are deemed to be basic necessities will help reduce costs significantly, and making medical research public and collaborative (rather than the private profit-seeking competition we see today) so that research is less expensive and more available, would make Socialized medicine in America work quite well.

So once again -

Socialism = Providing basic goods and services to all of it's people at no cost.

Capitalism = Profit off the working class by any means possible, even requiring everyone to pay for something if they can't afford it, even denying service or making services exorbitantly expensive to maintain profitability.

I know which one I prefer. Damn the money, as Muhammad Ali said.

Sirisian · 2012-06-28, 05:16 PM

Kind of an odd stepping stone toward a single payer system. I've been reading about this for a while, and I don't think anyone on either side feels like this is the last stop for healthcare. We still have a long way to go.