I LOVE vehicle spam, it's NOT the problem of this game

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Smaller groups should not go head-on in armor but play more tactical: capping smaller or secondary objectives devs said they will add to this game or defend bases that I expect will be more defensible against zergs in future updates.

In a lot of situations, especially how this game flows a small group might be best served in flanking a larger group, fighting from high ground, ambushing larger groups in some of these naturally constricted areas. Small groups really have to play smart.

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Lately, I'm reading a lot of suggestions that want to limit my power and freedom or want to turn this game into a small scale tactical shooter. Screw that, it's not what I signed up for in this game.

These suggestions are mostly tied to the fact that vehicles do not allow to quit a spawnroom without dying. Better base/outpost designs plus:

You can still have a very strategic game without limiting peoples ability to do whatever they want. Limiting vehicle spam (increasing timers and costs, etc.) is a solution to the wrong problem. Instead, the game should focus on giving me more power to fight vehicle spam: better launchers, deployable AV and AA turrets, artillery call-ins, etc.

... and people will stop complaining rather quickly.


You have the correct idea, it's just that people offer timer/cost incrase only because most of them stick to only few gamestyles. Hence all the misconception.

[SpunkyKuma]

Base and outpost design is the problem.

[Aaron]

So long as infantry fights can be had at bases and outposts, I have no problem with high density vehicle spam.

[AThreatToYou]

I love to see swarms of vehicles too. It's really fun when you are in a vehicle to be a part of those things.

But it's no fun to be an infantry. That should be adjusted. Almost everyone else is seeing the right thing, and that is that base design and maybe map design in a few parts are flawed to favor vehicles in such a way that allow them to influence the battle all the way through.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

Hey OP, I'm with you !!! (sort of).

Whenever we have a Prowler Zerg hitting us (and this happens often on Miller), we actually look forward to the ensuing Tank battle that starts up.

We - luckily - have been blessed with some good outfits on Miller regarding knowing how to play the game without resorting to just whining on the forums because a 5 man squad cant do anything anymore.

The TR and the VS seem to be the dominant factions on Miller, but slowly the NC are starting to get their act together and I've seen quite a few outfits spring up that cause us problems.

I play on Miller (most of my time) as well as Mattherson and Connery. Especially on Miller, I see vehicle spams not as an issue at all. That server has many well-organized smaller outfits that know how to make a difference and handle vehicle spam: Good coordination with other outfits and great execution of anti-zerg tactics as described in this topic.

[Timealude]

I sort of agree with you OP about it not being the armor column's fault but it comes down to yes in a real life situation where you have 30 tanks vs 50 infantry the tanks are going to win...But just like real life duties in military they wouldnt be very fun in a game. You have the right idea about more anti vehicle things but others are right about the world design, it allows too much for tank and vehicles and not enough for infantry.

This is why people are asking for Urban continents with ruins and such so we can ambush a bit easier. People also seem to not understand that if they increase the cooldown or resource cost for vehicles that by common sense they would have to increase the power of those vehicles as well. So to those people, could you really imagine a tank taking like 5 rockets to the back or 10 to the front, Liberators having the same health as a galaxy?

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

In a lot of situations, especially how this game flows a small group might be best served in flanking a larger group, fighting from high ground, ambushing larger groups in some of these naturally constricted areas. Small groups really have to play smart.

This. Armored combat definitely isn't one of the multiple places where a small team has no role. Even a single python AP running around the backfield can shatter a column, force them out of otherwise excellent cover, and just be a dick in general. He may even live through it.

[Beerbeer]

I wouldn't be surprised if this dude rarely plays infantry, or ever tries to defend anything as infantry.

That's fine, spam vehicles all you want, but nerf the crap out of infantry damage, SMED Jr.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I want a game were I have a fighting chance against them.

Funny, that's exactly what you're denying yourself mathematically...



Because if you buff infantry weapons even further, that won't do anything but make multiple forms of combat aggravating.

Do note that the damage dealt by handheld infantry weapons (both short and long range) is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than in PS1 for handheld weaponry and therefore the TTK on vehicles SIGNIFICANTLY SHORTER.


Despite of that, the sheer mass of tanks turns out to far outweigh the effect of buffing infantry weapons. Remember that it took 18 shots for a Phoenix in PS1 to kill a Vanguard? Do you remember the TTK length of that feeling like an eon? From the right angle, it takes two AV shots in PS2 and even from the front only a few shots in comparison. Yet vehicles dominate beyond what PS1 ever had.

More forms of AV won't matter either, the basic AV necessities are there en mass. They don't help.


Do you want instakill infantry weapons against tanks? Will this help either form of combat to be more fun and fulfilling?

In the end, vehicles will still one shot you with dozens of guns trained in your direct at the same time. Like it or not, this situation is created by the sheer amount of guns pointed in your direction and the frequency of that occurance. Not by how fast you can remove them, because they can just pull something equally lethal even though you've become more than 5 to 9x as effective at killing MBTs since PS1 already and are twice as lethal against Lightnings.

Fact is, Lightnings have become 5x as effective as well, while MBTs have one or two guns of nigh instakill power and come in far greater numbers due to their manpower limitation removal. If for every infantry unit, you can have a tank unit in an engagement, then it doesn't matter if you can kill them a bit quicker, they will kill you even more quickly. And making them so vulnerable that they become token units and everything kills everything in one shot, just removes skill from the battlefield even more and turns it into a roll of the dice game. And nothing frustrates players in a competitive FPS more than random chance and lack of personal control, not to mention skill mattering less and less in engagements.


You called it freedom and power, I call it an addiction to a drug pretending to empower you, while it in reality enslaves you and burns you out quickly. The answer is not to fight fire with more fire, the answer is fire control.


EDIT: just for the record:

PS1 Decimator (max of 3 shots per Decimator carried) :
MAX 3 shots
Lightning 4 shots
Prowler 11 shots
Magrider 9 shots
Vanguard 12 shots

PS1 Phoenix (clip 1, 9 missiles per ammo box) :
MAX 3 shots
Lightning 6 shots
Prowler 18 shots
Magrider 14 shots
Vanguard 18 shots

PS1 Striker (Clip 5, 15 missiles per ammo box) :
MAX 6 shots
Lightning 12 shots
Prowler 36 shots
Magrider 28 shots
Vanguard 36 shots

PS1 Lancer (Clip 6, 18 energy cells per ammo box) :
MAX 6 shots
Lightning 9 shots
Prowler 22(?) shots
Magrider 17(?) shots
Vanguard 23(?) shots

Source: http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/...Anti-Vehicular (last updated: dec. 2006, which is I believe post-40% AV buff)

EDIT: indeed it was: http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/...p?title=3.11.6 (April 2006)

[ShadetheDruid]

Mmm, it's not that I don't want to see more AV and AA stuff, since I love to see more variety of things getting added (and more ways for infantry to deal with things). It's not so much the "more" I have an issue with, it's the "powerful" that usually comes after it. I guess in that sense, i'm not really disagreeing with you as such.

It's just a little frustrating to be that person who does do the less head-on, more flanky/ambush stuff and inadvertantly be on the receiving end of a fix that involves helping infantry deal with vehicle zergs. Especially since my vehicle of choice is a HEAT Lightning, so I already have to fear infantry, and pick my vehicle targets really well.

I guess I side more with the concept of fixing bases and the resource system (and with a proper resource system, there wouldn't even need to be timers, really).

[Mox]

Vehicle spam isnt the main problem.
Thr problem is that there is no proper space for infantry combat. The bases are too open for vecs and no real defense is possible.

[sneeek]

I used to think that vehicle / air spam was a problem that needed to be addressed, but now it seems to me that when your spawn room is camped by half a dozen tanks, liberators and a bunch of infantry, it's time to spawn elsewhere. You've already been beaten. If the enemy takes out the SCU, they're actually doing you a favour.

Sometimes a quick vehicle counter-attack can recover the base. There isn't much high-level commanding going on right now, so this happens more by chance than by design.

Difficulty of base defence has already oscillated between extremes during PS2 beta, so it's clearly rather a difficult thing to balance.

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by Mox

Vehicle spam isnt the main problem.
Thr problem is that there is no proper space for infantry combat. The bases are too open for vecs and no real defense is possible.

That is basically it..... Have all bases surrounded by walls like AMP stations and build up the main structure to be as big as the current bases with the surrounding buildings within this structure.

You have a spawn room inside a base, you have tanks only able to get in from max 1-2 entrances (into the base courtyard) and have all infantry fighting inside the main structure (with multiple doors to get in.

Leave towers and the outside structures as is to add variety and you have the perfect setup.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Infernalis]

We need better base design AND more places focused on infantry (not just Biolabs).

People also seem to not understand that if they increase the cooldown or resource cost for vehicles that by common sense they would have to increase the power of those vehicles as well. So to those people, could you really imagine a tank taking like 5 rockets to the back or 10 to the front, Liberators having the same health as a galaxy?

No, increasing cooldown and/or ressources will just mean you will see less vehicles on the field (that's the point after all), not that you have to buff them.