Are AP Cannons underpowered? - Page 2

Figment · 2013-03-20, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

HE does plenty of damage to tanks. I mean, think of it this way, how much harder is it to hit infantry with AP over HE? 3 times? 4 times? 5 times?

Dunno, I hit them in the face with either for one shot kills anyway.

ChipMHazard · 2013-03-20, 07:00 AM

Ideally I would have liked to see the AP rounds be able to negate some of the damage mitigation on tanks.

I agree with the HEAT being superior overall, I don't see much reason to pick AP over HEAT, currently.

Hamma · 2013-03-20, 10:11 AM

I think they are tricky to get the hang of because you have to be very accurate. But I do not think they are underpowered.

Assist · 2013-03-20, 10:24 AM

I agree with others that the problem is the HEAT does too much armor damage. I run a FPC setup on my Magrider and I'm really starting to wonder why. I actually drove up to an enemy Sunderer to drop tank mines on it because I couldn't kill the Sunderer with just one Engineer repairing it and there is no blast radius on the AP to kill the Engineer. So, IMO, the FPC/AP guns for MBT's need to do a bit more damage, but the HEAT also needs to have it's armor damage reduced.

Shamrock · 2013-03-20, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Assist

I agree with others that the problem is the HEAT does too much armor damage. I run a FPC setup on my Magrider and I'm really starting to wonder why. I actually drove up to an enemy Sunderer to drop tank mines on it because I couldn't kill the Sunderer with just one Engineer repairing it and there is no blast radius on the AP to kill the Engineer. So, IMO, the FPC/AP guns for MBT's need to do a bit more damage, but the HEAT also needs to have it's armor damage reduced.

Completely agree, in an AP lightning I often find its easier to run over a HA or even jump out and shoot with your engineer than try and hit them with an AP shell.

Baneblade · 2013-03-20, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Hamma

I think they are tricky to get the hang of because you have to be very accurate. But I do not think they are underpowered.

Why should I use my AP cannon after I get the HEAT up to par in reload certs?

Rothnang · 2013-03-20, 03:17 PM

I think it would be great if all tanks had a coaxial machine gun, because then AP cannons would no longer be so idiotic. I mean, literally just strap my empires standard carbine to the barrel with a shoe string to pull the trigger and it will make AP worth my while.

bpostal · 2013-03-20, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

...The anti vehicle secondaries, with the exception of the Saron are ok against infantry...

This may be showing my ignorance but...the Sauron is an AV weapon? FML. I figured it for an AI sniping platform, similar to the main cannon on the Maggie in Planetside.

Rothnang · 2013-03-20, 03:35 PM

A Saron will kill infantry in a direct hit, but calling it a sniper is a total joke.

The best zoom you can get on it is 2.0x, compared to a sniper rifles whopping 12.0x, it fires with a half second delay after you pull the trigger, and its projectile has considerable travel speed at any range where you could call it a sniper shot. It's barrel can't be depressed so it can't hit targets that are close to the Magrider, or otherwise below the gun.

So sure, you can snipe infantry with it pretty much exactly like you can snipe infantry with an AP cannon. It's actually more difficult because of the firing delay and crummy range of motion on the gun.

Also it's a Saron, not a Sauron. I think it's named after a type of musical instrument from Indonesia.

bpostal · 2013-03-20, 03:37 PM

Huh, I guess my figuring was off since it's just about the only secondary I get killed by.

Rothnang · 2013-03-20, 03:43 PM

Avoiding getting killed by a Saron is the same as avoiding getting killed by a Sniper, it's not difficult if you aren't tempting your luck.

The only time infantry has to dangerously expose themselves to a Saron is when you try to use an AV Mana against a Magrider. Otherwise if you get hit you're doing something wrong.

bpostal · 2013-03-20, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

... Otherwise if you get hit you're doing something wrong.

My entire playstyle is 'wrong' but I enjoy it. I breach tech plant doors with my face, act as a human minesweeper and run dick first at MBT with an empty rocket launcher to try and get them to back up.

I'll run in circles like a chicken with my head cut off more often though to avoid 'em. Thanks for the heads up!

Ghoest9 · 2013-03-20, 04:10 PM

Well compared to HEAT - yes.

But we dont want them killing other tanks faster than they are.

I suppose it might be good to make them shoot even flatter than they do now.

Cruiza · 2013-03-20, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

snip

Perfectly said, Rothnang. I've always wanted to use the Prowler as a pure anti-tank terror, but the overall opportunity cost of trading HEAT for AP is just too great for the almost insignificant benefits it would provide.

So, what is the solution? Well, vaguely speaking, there needs to be more of an overall incentive to choose AP over HEAT. The XP increase for tank kills helps, but it's not nearly enough since the real issue is the minuscule difference between AP and HEAT in the anti-armor role. It doesn't really matter whether the incentive is increased by nerfing HEAT, buffing AP, or a combination of the two, but I personally feel AP shouldn't really be buffed all that much. Rather, I feel the overall effectiveness of HEAT just needs to be toned down, and there are multiple options for achieving such a result (damage reduction, refire/reload time increase, etc.).

Additionally, a new MBT cert option could be introduced that reduces the damage taken from HEAT but not AP rounds. I'm far from a tank expert, but this is apparently the exact purpose of composite and reactive armors IRL. In fact, from the little research I did this afternoon, it sounds like HEAT rounds aren't even used all that often by tanks because of these modern armors. Also, I found very little info on actual dual-purpose HEAT rounds in general. The only ones I did see were those that are fired from grenade launchers - not tanks - and I can only image that their anti-armor effectiveness pales in comparison to AP/KEP rounds fired from an MBT.

Summary:

HEAT should be nerfed, especially against armor
New MBT cert such as composite or reactive armor that reduces damage taken from HEAT
Real tanks apparently don't even use HEAT rounds very often because of modern armor
Do dual-purpose HEAT rounds actually exist for tanks? I only found references to grenade launchers

Summary of Summary:

HEAT is OP in PlanetSide 2

Silent Thunder · 2013-03-20, 04:38 PM

One way I could think of making AP rounds more effective without making them OP would be to simply make them ignore the 100 cert armours you can slap on a MBT or Lightning, since they are Armour piercing after all.