Why this game needs old bitter vets - Page 2

Littleman · 2012-07-18, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Aerothorn

I agree that the onus will be on vets to be community leaders. That said, it will be important to minimize the bitterness during active play. Chewing out new players not used to Planetside's tactical complexity and somewhat slower pace isn't going to make things better, it will just piss them off.

Bossing them around will piss them off. Telling them you played PS1 will just get them to outright ignore you. It's the internet, implicating in any way that you're their superior and not their equal will just add fuel to the fire.

For all intents and purposes, walking into PS2 without making obvious your PS1 experience when working with new bloods would be best in easing them in.

"This is what works..." vs "I learned this works..." Newbs are more likely to take helpful advice from... other newbs. Word everything like you're brand new too. I've found it helps a lot since it doesn't sound like you're bossing them around, but sharing learning experiences.

Don't get me wrong, some people do enjoy having the mentor type, but they're generally eager enough to learn that they can figure out the basics fairly quickly on their own, or likewise, they're nice, but too incapable of learning that it's a frustrating ordeal teaching them how to do the basics. Just... play being their equal, and show your experience as they warm up to you.

...We'll get classic MMORPG players trying out Planetside asking how to click on abilities... count on it.

Regarding tactics: I imagine a lot of the tactics and strageies we pulled in PS1 we'll have to either outright drop or heavily modify for PS2. There is no more single CC, no single generator, no lattice, no backdoor - things a lot of said tactics revolved around.

We have hexes. Hexes influence a variety of things, including hack times. We have resources. We have squad spawning (which hexes influence.) We have galaxies that act as spawn points (depending on hex influence) and can carry two squads of people. Let's not forget about all the freakin' customizability of just about everything you can get your grubby mitts on, including the camo and decals on your gun. Classes especially require a new approach to infantry encounters, as there may be a greater inclination towards prioritizing targets than PS1 ever had. Then there are other tangible variables, like continental benefits (non-existent as of now,) or just how beneficial facility bonuses may be.

One really big thing I hope not to see is everyone focusing solely on the bases: this is something I expect strictly from PS1 vets actually. Towers and bunkers/outposts (the Indar fly through in the last 6 minutes of Higby's 46 minute presentation revealed some fairly sizeable outposts that weren't bases) will be just as important to capturing a base as the base itself. Refer to hexes influencing capture times for the why. I expect Call of Duty and especially Battlefield players to see a capture point and gun for it, even fight ferociously over it, because it's what they were trained to do.

As a vet myself, I won't be naively walking into PS2 thinking "I got this." A LOT has changed from PS1. The base concept of massive cluster-**** battles is still there, along with mixed arms and the three empires and their dogma's. Beyond that, it's a whole new game.

Jumping into the fight expecting to win because of my PS1 experience sounds more like a burden than an aid. I'm not one to blind myself to reality for the sake of my self-indulgent imaginings. I think the experiences of working with one's outfit will pay off big time, but the meta game PS1 had likely won't translate very well at all into PS2. Coincidentally I think this will be a point of disinterest and frustration to some PS1 vets.

The new guys will be developing habits/tactics for PS2, while PS1 vets may need to first learn to break their old PS1 habits/tactics is all I'm saying. If you want a life example: reference how the French approached the onset of WWII thinking it'd be the same thing as WWI. That's just an example of how old strategies could go, however, not a guarantee.

To all my fellow veterans, all I ask is that you try and approach Planetside 2 with the intent to learn and accept new strategies and tactics, instead of clinging desperately to what worked in Planetside LIVE and getting angry should they fail.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. For Land. For Power. Forever.

Tatwi · 2012-07-18, 06:43 PM

Outfits will solve a lot of these issues. Leaders will remove people who refuse to "fall in line" with how that their outfit expects them to act/play. Eventually people will find a group to play with that matches their own personality and play style. Then, unlike every other MMO on Earth other than PS1, people will likely stay with their outfit for the long haul.

No raiding, no dungeons, no boss fights to lose, no loot, no "ilevel", no leveling, and as a result, no social friction associated with those things.

It may take a few months or even a year, but eventually most players will be "guilded" and thus, have less of a reason to interact with other people on their faction that they don't like. "Bitter old vets" will be leading some of the most effective social and tactical guilds in the game, but by the same token, there will be guilds made up of people from small-scale FPS games that absolutely will out skill and out play most other guilds. There will be rivalry between these kinds of guilds, especially on the same faction, but that's healthy.

What's not healthy is being the random fucktard/TKer that no one wants to play with. Thankfully, there will be an ignore and report feature.

Papscal · 2012-07-18, 06:45 PM

Shut up and play.

Sephirex · 2012-07-18, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Papscal

Shut up and play.

We would if we could, ol' chap.

Death2All · 2012-07-18, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by ZaBa

I won't mind that so much as what I'm expecting; vets getting mad that the game itself is wrong because X tactic doesn't work the way it used to, or is completely irrelevant due to fundamental gameplay differences.

I'm sure plenty of strategic skills will carry over, but it feels like a lot of people are [incorrectly] assuming they'll instantly know what's up with in-the-weeds tactics just because the names of a lot of things are the same, which will generate significant grief among those for whom this isn't the case.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I honestly hope I'm wrong either way. Could do without a beta full of people demanding the game be made more like PS1.

To sum up what I just said:

I love old players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like (i.e.: planetside 1)

Originally Posted by Littleman

To all my fellow veterans, all I ask is that you try and approach Planetside 2 with the intent to learn and accept new strategies and tactics, instead of clinging desperately to what worked in Planetside LIVE and getting angry should they fail.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. For Land. For Power. Forever.

Very well said, both of you. There's definitely going to be people bummed out that all the knowledge and skill they've acquired from the first game isn't going make any difference in the new game (myself included). After playing a game for some many years and transferring over to an entirely different one, it's definitely going to take some getting used to. I just hope I'm not completely blind sided by all the new game mechanics that I am a thumbless nub all over again.

CountMeIn · 2012-07-18, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Irish

From the footage i have seen recently including one that had the VOIP of the players playing, more importantly how they were handling situations and reacting/nerd raging to certain in game events. i noticed that this game is going to be consumed with the accepted norm of current fps mentality. harassment, trolling, profanity, racism....add a F2P model with unlimited account creation possibility = a total recipe for disaster. i have read through the posts regarding the concerns about F2P already which are all mainly valid.

This game is going to heavily rely on old bitter vets, to renew old tactics and make them the accepted norm.

i watched a liberator pilot land his lib to repair, and get flamed by the gunner for taking to long, endless flame w/ harrasment.
this is the instant gratification "modern" fps gamers are used to.

i hope that with the overwhelming experience from vets, and large skilled outfits, our initial tactics and strategy set firm the foundation that made planetside 1 so great.

the opportunity to set the standard right off the bat is available to all of us. lets make it a mature experience, very much opposite of how LOL is currently. (just my example of the worst gaming community i have ever seen)

I guess this community is very mature, but you can never protect a game from children and noobs...it is just the way it is, and they too have to learn.

But i agree with what you are saying.
Keep it as mature as possible, don't whine for getting killed or trolled by someone and don't spam random things that aren't game play in open world vent.
People will fail a lot in the beginning of the beta and the released game, but that is just natural and you will learn to handle it quickly, and that is what veterans are here for, to help the new people out.

SleepyZombie · 2012-07-18, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by ZaBa

Hang on, let me go smoke a pack of cigarillos, I need to get in character. Can't play the grizzled vet without a voice like a cement mixer, right?

I won't mind that so much as what I'm expecting; vets getting mad that the game itself is wrong because X tactic doesn't work the way it used to, or is completely irrelevant due to fundamental gameplay differences.

I'm sure plenty of strategic skills will carry over, but it feels like a lot of people are [incorrectly] assuming they'll instantly know what's up with in-the-weeds tactics just because the names of a lot of things are the same, which will generate significant grief among those for whom this isn't the case.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I honestly hope I'm wrong either way. Could do without a beta full of people demanding the game be made more like PS1.

To sum up what I just said:

I love old players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like (i.e.: planetside 1)

I think soe is doing a very good job at taking the tactics from planetside 1 and making sure they will still be viable in planetside 2.

I understand what you are saying and to a degree I agree but I think a big problem with sequels to older games the reason so many of them have been failing recently is because of to drastic deviations from the previous installment

ie
Diablo 2 ----> Diablo 3
TOR ----> SWTOR
Call of Duty ----> dear god where does it end
Halo ----> Meh halo was never good imo

Sadly these games did not live up to there successors and have been met with a lot of contention. The big problem comes when game companys try to reinvent the wheel when they should just leave well enough alone and stick with what made the game a hit and maybe change small aspects to improve upon the game.... Not change an aspect in hopes to make it more fun.

sylphaen · 2012-07-18, 06:47 PM

I count on 3 things to have things even up:
- player numbers (eventually you get shot however good you are)
- the grief system
- the mute system

Most people are decent and the few bad apples are easy to isolate. I never really had any issue over many years of PS and as D2A mentioned, PS players were not carols singers.

Rivenshield · 2012-07-18, 06:53 PM

I think a lot of our concerns can be ameliorated if we volunteer to take squads of random nooblets under our wing, especially during the first month. That will have a tremendous effect on the quality of the community to come, as we all know from our own history....

"Hello zerglings! My name's Rivenshield and I'll be your combat tour guide for today. I've been playing Planetside since 2003, I helped beta-test this game, and I'm delighted to have you on my side. We're going to have a lot of fun today. But before we get started, I want to talk a little about the history and traditions of the Terran Republic.

"Back in 2003, when this whole act was getting off the ground, a lot of the people who signed up for the TR were hard-core veterans of the primitive first-person shooters of the 1990's. These were very serious people. Some of them played the tournament circuit. Very team-oriented, very good at what they did. Professionals, like you saw in the cinematic. But they didn't boss us around or call us noobs. They led us by example and helped us, just like I'm helping you.

"They were our founding fathers. They taught us to move and fight as a team. And it's thanks to them that we're the infantry empire, the support empire. We put more lead downrange, heal more wounds, and fix more stuff than the other two empires put together.

"That's why we die pointing medical applicators at each other. That's why we shoot enemy vehicles with rifles, to distract the driver and give somebody else a chance to thump him. That's while we sit behind tanks under heavy fire with our glue guns out -- knowing we're gonna die, and we don't budge. We keep faith with the guy in that tank. It's Loyalty Until Death, for real, for each other. That's a real tradition, and it's something you can be proud to participate in.

"And we need those traditions. Because this is not a game -- not like you guys are used to. This is a war being fought out over a virtual battlefield, and a lot of the habits you formed playing other first person shooters will get you killed very quickly here. To survive in this new environment, you need to act in concert with the people around you. Even if they're not in your squad, or your outfit, and you won't see them for the rest of the day. You help them out so they can help you.

"That's how the Terran Republic has fought since day one. Together. And that is how we win.

"Now let's go find a big fight and jump in the middle of it. Trust me -- this will blow your mind."

Emperor · 2012-07-18, 07:10 PM

Correct me if I'm reading a bit into this, but the OP's post seems to skirt just shy of saying that new players are going to be rabble that the old guard needs to keep in line. While I definitely don't disagree that this game is going to get a large number of players who want instant gratification, don't know about tactics, and will need other players to put them in line, I don't like the assertions that these are "accepted norms" and that it's going to be solely on "bitter vets" to drill this out of people.

The players you described are simply bad players. Every team-based game has its share of people who contribute in no meaningful way, grab their guns and rush off without heed so they can get their first blood and kill streaks and what have you. This might not be because someone is new to a franchise, this might just be the way someone plays. Sometimes you can change that by showing them the value of teamwork; sometimes you can't.

This does not mean, however, that all new players are going to be like this. Again, correct me if I'm wrong on the message the OP was making, I might be looking at it a bit defensively since this will be my first foray into Planetside, but I think the onus isn't on just Planetside vets, it's on good players, period. There are players who will be coming into the game who know the value of teamwork, who know a thing or two about ops and tactics--perhaps not on as grand a scale, but certainly the foundation is there, the mentality is there.

Just please be aware that not all new players coming into Planetside are going to be trolls, racists, or bads with Rambo mentalities. Nor should it fall squarely on old Planetside players to try and work with those players; it should fall on the community as a whole. We really shouldn't be segregating ourselves into "vets" and "newbs," but rather team-oriented players and those who aren't.

Tatwi · 2012-07-18, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Emperor

Correct me if I'm reading a bit into this, but the OP's post seems to skirt just shy of saying that new players are going to be rabble that the old guard needs to keep in line.

No, what he said was that people on the Internet in general are a bunch of douche bags and a lot of them will try Planetside 2. Therefore it's up to the Planetside 1 vets, who will obviously be playing Planetside 2, to eliminate the influence of internet-douchebaggery by helping organize a strong community that does not reward internet-douchebaggery.

I'm pretty sure that the OP is well aware that there will many FPS guilds who will come to PS2 and pwn our pansy PS1 Vet arses.

Glavius · 2012-07-18, 07:30 PM

Just as in WoW, APB, or any other online game I play. I don't run with random groups of people. I'll squad up with my outfit so I'll rarely have to deal with the public.

That's the easiest way to get a good group of players who fit your play style. Obvious I know.

Khellendros · 2012-07-18, 07:34 PM

I think there's going to be a lot of bitter hate from the veterans of the first game coming down on the CoD/BF players that won't know what's going on.

Wut? More like ecstasy at all the easy targets.

Rivenshield · 2012-07-18, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Glavius

I'll squad up with my outfit so I'll rarely have to deal with the public.

Divvying one's empire up into a bunch of private cliques (a) will not assist the health of the community and (b) may actually hurt you in large-scale battle.

The TR has always had a high degree of cohesion. Strangers helping strangers, glue gun in hand, and freely swapping info with each other. That's why I wear the red and black. I don't want to see that go. I will try to pass on the old ways as best I can in as user-friendly a way as I can, without putting on airs.

Littleman · 2012-07-18, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

Divvying one's empire up into a bunch of private cliques (a) will not assist the health of the community and (b) may actually hurt you in large-scale battle.

The TR has always had a high degree of cohesion. Strangers helping strangers, glue gun in hand, and freely swapping info with each other. That's why I wear the red and black. I don't want to see that go. I will try to pass on the old ways as best I can in as user-friendly a way as I can, without putting on airs.

This is my plan too. Simply having their back is teaching them a lesson in and of itself, especially if they're surviving scenario's that would be impossible to tackle while low on ammo, badly wounded, and alone. There will always be people that will simply never get it, or are just warped enough to think they deserve treatment from the support roles, but I won't let them dissuade me. I've seen how the Terran Republic operates in PS1. If even half of the Republic FNGs in PS2 adopt a similar "one for all, all for one" mentality, we're going to kick a lot of ass.

Also, I agree on the divvying up part. I'm pretty much done with MMORPG's. I like to casually role-play, but most role-players pretty much join a guild and stick to just role-playing in their guilds. No wonder developers are so hesitant to support them. RP cliques just essentially negate any reason for a developer to provide an RP server. Guilds are totally capable of policing themselves.

This is just one example of how sticking to in-guild interactions kills communities.

NOTE: I'm not planning to role-play in Planetside 2. There's too much $#!% to shoot!