Planetside 2 Removing my favorite aspect of PS1 - Page 2

texico · 2012-01-22, 08:22 PM

A lot of the hate I see thrown at PlanetSide 1's more sandbox cert system is that it resulted in super-soldiers, with people doing everything. But as Fig pointed out, that becomes more of a problem when there's too many certs available to a character.

Everything is the key word. It wasn't a problem, or at least nobody was bothered, by the fact that people could do multiple things. Cloaking and laying CE wasn't a problem. The problem came when a normal infantry could be completely self-sustainable, as in they had the tools to take on all types of adversary and were able to heal/repair themselves without support. But this wasn't a fundamental problem with the cert system, it was a problem of having too many cert points or too cheap certifications.

A key feature of PlanetSide 1 was that players organised themselves into classes naturally, in response to the environmental conditions and their own skills. But these classes were more general and less well defined because of the extent to which people could customize their load out. If you went and found a Sniper hill, there's a good chance every Sniper would have configured themselves differently; some would be carry a Sniper Rifle and AV, and acting as a kind of long-distance assault for example. In PS2 if players are pushed into classes, these kind of perfectly legitimate hybrid classes disappear, and you're therefore reducing the variety of gameplay, but also the complexity of combat and tactical gameplay.

I think my population distribution graphs were a pretty good example. 9 roles in TF2 that everybody is contained in; predictable, no variety, no fine-tuned roles that more accurately match the requirements of battle, just 9 classes that everybody is and only will be.

Warborn · 2012-01-22, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by texico

Cloaking and laying CE wasn't a problem.

That depends on who you ask. If that were the kind of gameplay they want cloakers to gravitate toward in PS2 then, no, it wouldn't be a problem. But, clearly they have decided that they want cloakers to experience gameplay other than being a mad bomber this time around. In that case, yes, cloakers laying CE would be a problem because that is not what they want the cloaker experience to include.

And that's really what the point is. They want there to be defined gameplay experiences. They want there to be infantry who are mobile with jetpacks, but which aren't as durable or heavily armed as infantry wearing rexo with HA. If a proposed cert system would allow for someone to wear heavy armor and jetpack, or wear a jetpack and HA, or do something else that defies the archetypes they've established with their class system, then it is contravening the gameplay they have in mind for this sequel, and on that basis alone it is a "problem".

CuddlyChud · 2012-01-22, 08:57 PM

Classes allow for more differentiation in terms of abilities. Rexo was basically just an upgraded version of agile armor after the rexo buff and surge nerf. By splitting these two into classes, you can differentiate them more so that the light ("agile") class has jet packs, but he doesn't get HA. People didn't really organize themselves into classes. They chose one/two weapons that they liked/were useful. Kinda like in CoD, which imo doesn't have classes since they're completely customizable. You just choose a gun loadout, perks and killstreak loadout and assign it to a class, kinda like the cert system.
There was no "class" distribution in PS1. Almost everyone in PS1 was a medic first, rifleman second. The concept of the supersoldier is that they are completely self-sufficient and don't need other people other than for the extra dps.
Classes are just a better way, for me, to experience all the content on a more regular basis, as opposed to the cert system.

Vash02 · 2012-01-22, 09:07 PM

In my opinion, the self supporting soldier problem has been inflated out of all proportion. It didnt affect gameplay for the majority. The only times it mattered was in small fights of maybe 1v3 etc where one pro guy kept on owning a tower.
It may of been a source of irritation for the person who wanted to be a medic but they had plenty of rezzing jobs to do. And an Engineer should be looking after the MAXes instead of the meatbags.

NCLynx · 2012-01-22, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

More or less, with the nuanciation that within the limitations of a PS1 suit, you were not restricted in defining what exactly this 'class' entails. PS2 defines the classes much more beyond your basic suit as it has already split up these suits (in comparison to PS1) to fit more specific roles. Basically you had five 'classes' in PS1, one of five suit types: standard/infil/agile/rexo/MAX. Within these classes you can fit in the inventory whatever weapons and tools you have access to and you can use inherent traits (for instance, advanced hacking) on each "class" as long as you carried the correct tool. In fact, aside from the MAX, the only limitation on what you could use was your slot, but this didn't prevent you from switching gear from inventory in order to use it. The new system sounds like it does do just that.

But that's wrong.

The "classes" weren't defined by the armor you wore, they were also defined by the limitations they brought with them. I'll be excluding Standard because I hardly ever saw anyone use that seriously anyway.

Using agile freed up at least 3 cert points for not using rexo. You could get more of what you wanted be it vehicles maybe more weapons but you couldn't use anymore than the 1 weapon (MAYBE 1 deci if you really wanted, but 1 deci could hardly be considered an anti-veh class). You could have more points to have for support.

Rexo didn't allow you to use many vehicles (maybe 1 or 2 tops). So why would you even get them in the first place? Get weapons OR support or a slight mix of both. Can't go to far into both though (During the days of BR20).

MAX/Cloaker: Points used for a very specific armor, MAXes couldn't do anything but walk n shoot (maybe get a ride here n there too) so you were very limited but very hard hitting. Cloaker, well you get the idea.

If you had MAX/Cloaker chances are you did NOT have rexo, and possibly had either limited vehicles in agile or more support. Whatever other role you chose to throw those points into.

The "classes" were hardly just what armor you wore.

PS2 "classes" are fine.

texico · 2012-01-22, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

That depends on who you ask. If that were the kind of gameplay they want cloakers to gravitate toward in PS2 then, no, it wouldn't be a problem. But, clearly they have decided that they want cloakers to experience gameplay other than being a mad bomber this time around. In that case, yes, cloakers laying CE would be a problem because that is not what they want the cloaker experience to include.

And that's really what the point is. They want there to be defined gameplay experiences. They want there to be infantry who are mobile with jetpacks, but which aren't as durable or heavily armed as infantry wearing rexo with HA. If a proposed cert system would allow for someone to wear heavy armor and jetpack, or wear a jetpack and HA, or do something else that defies the archetypes they've established with their class system, then it is contravening the gameplay they have in mind for this sequel, and on that basis alone it is a "problem".

But that's what the whole cookie-cutter thing about classes means. You're sectioning players into the experience you want to give them. In PlanetSide, the experience you were given was that of a soldier in a battle for a planet, with X equipment available to your particular empire. That's the experience you got. How you choose to live out that experience was up to you, and that's what made PlanetSide great. You weren't forced into how you were going to participate.

In my opinion, classes are a cheap, easy and inferior way to attempt to gravitate players towards a way of playing - it's basically force. If the dev's want cloakers to gravitate away from a particular play style (i.e killwhoring with bombers), then they best way to do that is to add in additional variables that make it disadvantageous to play that way, for example, make boomers shine so they can be seen floating when cloakers hold them, or make them so big cloakers can only carry 2 or 3. That way, you can manipulate the majority of the player base into doing things without forcing them, and those that want to do it despite the disadvantage (which if the disadvantage is enough, would be few) can still do.

Otherwise, why stop at classes? Why not a system that automatically puts you into the empire with the lowest population, or picks a class for you automatically based on the number of people fulfilling each class? You could address all problems of balance and the devs could perfectly create their vision of how battles are organized and pan out by doing this. You don't do it because players want to be in control of their own gaming experience, and the more control you give them the less stressed and happier they're going to be in the game. Obviously, it becomes a balancing act between player's freedom and the coherency and balance of the game, but PlanetSide 1 showed you can give players the freedom to to choose, manipulate and gravitate them based on buffs/nerfs, advantages and disadvantages, and all though there were problems with balance in some cases, they could have been resolved with more effort and care from the devs.

Originally Posted by CuddlyChud

Classes allow for more differentiation in terms of abilities. Rexo was basically just an upgraded version of agile armor after the rexo buff and surge nerf. By splitting these two into classes, you can differentiate them more so that the light ("agile") class has jet packs, but he doesn't get HA. People didn't really organize themselves into classes. They chose one/two weapons that they liked/were useful. Kinda like in CoD, which imo doesn't have classes since they're completely customizable. You just choose a gun loadout, perks and killstreak loadout and assign it to a class, kinda like the cert system.
There was no "class" distribution in PS1. Almost everyone in PS1 was a medic first, rifleman second. The concept of the supersoldier is that they are completely self-sufficient and don't need other people other than for the extra dps.
Classes are just a better way, for me, to experience all the content on a more regular basis, as opposed to the cert system.

The jetpack example doesn't have to be a feature of a class to achieve that. It can simply be a feature of the agile exo suit - one of those many customization's. And it's reasonably plausible and realistic that something like a MAX couldn't use a jetpack due to obvious weight problems. It's not plausible that a soldier can't carry a sniper rifle and a machine gun, or a shotgun and a medical app, just cos... well, the devs don't want you to.

I don't know what you mean by people not organizing themselves into classes? Of course people did (I'm talking about everyone organizing themselves into their own classes). If you entered a battle, there'd be a hill full of people Sniping. If you zoomed in, there'd be nametags (cloakers) sneaking around next to the enemy. If you went to a tower, there might be a MAX crash organized waiting to hit a base. If you went near a loadstar, there'd be people with glue guns and repair apps repairing everything. If you went to the front line, there'd be infantry there, some of them in agile suits with Gauss rifles so they could move quickly, some of them in rexo's with Jackhammers and Phoenix Launchers so they could be tougher and more durable. None of these roles were official, none of them had to be specifically selected, none of them had restrictions making you play a certain way. Everybody just did it naturally based on how they wanted to play and what the battle demanded, and because of the cert system and inventory, they could taylor themselves very specifically to meet those variables.

If there's a problem with people not being able to experience enough dimensions of the game with the cert system, why not just remove the 6 hour timer?

-drop the number of certs available to 15-18
-remove the 6 hour timer

There. Now there aren't enough certs for people to do EVERYTHING like a supersoldier, and the removal of the timer between relearning certs means you can experience any aspect of the game you want to as quickly as the class system proposed for PS2.

Nobody has to be forced into certain ways of playing, everybody has the freedom to choose whatever aspect of the game they want to play at any given time (just like selecting a class when spawning in PS2), people can't be completely self sustainable and rely on teamwork, and everybody will organize themselves into classes "organically" in response to the demands of the battle and their own skill, and be able to taylor themselves to whatever unusual or hybrid or specific role they want.

EASyEightyEight · 2012-01-22, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by texico

Nobody has to be forced into certain ways of playing, everybody has the freedom to choose whatever aspect of the game they want to play at any given time (just like selecting a class when spawning in PS2), people can't be completely self sustainable and rely on teamwork, and everybody will organize themselves into classes "organically" in response to the demands of the battle and their own skill, and be able to taylor themselves to whatever unusual or hybrid or specific role they want.

I'd rather be able to pick a class that has a set selection of equipment it can use than to have to visit a cert terminal or relog into another character every time I want to do something else because I don't have the certs to do anything else.

People are touting the old system as phenomenal, but frankly, they're just defending Rexo/HA/AV/med/engi, and the capability to arrange their 4 ammo boxes to the left of the medkits instead of to the right. If they suggest any way to take even one aspect of that away, why not go to a class system? **** the restrictions on what I have access to. The old system was shallow and unnecessarily restrictive.

If one honestly thinks they're going to concern themselves with remembering hundreds of peoples cert load outs instead of just treating everyone as a brand new target, a different player, they're delusional.

Cloakers will be able to spec into being snipers. I have no doubt they can spec into sabotage, which I would assume incorporates REALLY BIG BOMBS on its equipment list before heading out for battle.

Lonehunter · 2012-01-23, 12:07 AM

Just don't give up on the game till you play it. I was against classes at first but slowly changed. The way I see it, classes will allow us to specialize into a certain role even more then before. Honestly I wouldn't worry about missing out on your favorite CE toys, I think it's rather obvious they made cloaking what it was and the new Infiltrators will probably have them or another variation.

But now with classes we can get even more cloaking toys, like a deployable sticky camera that we can detonate, maybe an ability to grant pure stealth for a short time even while running. But then the Engineers could get man-able turrets, create ammo stations, create a temporary bunker, all things a cloaker wouldn't usually do.

Vash02 · 2012-01-23, 12:41 AM

Why wouldnt you be able to that in a cert system? If they wanted a specialised infiltration role they could just make a new "infiltration" cert tree.

Lonehunter · 2012-01-23, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Vash02

Why wouldnt you be able to that in a cert system? If they wanted a specialised infiltration role they could just make a new "infiltration" cert tree.

Because of PS1's One-Man-Army-ness. Every cert had to be balanced in a way that didn't make certain combinations more OP, yes they didn't do a great job at that. But with even more powerful class-specific abilities letting people have their pick of the deadliest combinations is just harder to balance.

Warborn · 2012-01-23, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by texico

But that's what the whole cookie-cutter thing about classes means. You're sectioning players into the experience you want to give them. In PlanetSide, the experience you were given was that of a soldier in a battle for a planet, with X equipment available to your particular empire. That's the experience you got. How you choose to live out that experience was up to you, and that's what made PlanetSide great. You weren't forced into how you were going to participate.

You're assuming that the classes will be limited enough and inflexible enough that the breadth of gameplay options you have will be considerably less. I don't see any reason to assume that's the case. On the contrary, in fact, even though you don't have infiltrators planting bombs now one can assume that they will have a gameplay niche to compensate for that. Perhaps now they will actually have a useful function beyond simply planting boomers/turrets everywhere. Similarly, there is now room for a medic role in the game, something Planetside didn't have an analog to on account of every infantry guy having medical applicators.

The only thing this does is define niches better. Niches are very important for team based games, because they promote synergy and thus team work. Encouraging players to cooperate only works if people have pros and cons to their role. This desire for teamwork was obviously present in PS1, but with the sequel they appear to be taking it to the next level. Which makes sense.

At any rate, there are plenty of class based shooters which remain very popular after years of being on the market alongside classless shooters. Classes do not appear to be correlated with an FPS game being less fun to play. So the complaints regarding classes for PS2 seems to me, so far, to be mainly resistance to things being different, which I don't think is a healthy attitude to take.

Vash02 · 2012-01-23, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

Because of PS1's One-Man-Army-ness. Every cert had to be balanced in a way that didn't make certain combinations more OP, yes they didn't do a great job at that. But with even more powerful class-specific abilities letting people have their pick of the deadliest combinations is just harder to balance.

Why should we care if its easy or hard to balance? its not our job. What we should care about is what the gameplay is like at the end.
I just value more freedom rather than customisation.

Princess Frosty · 2012-01-23, 03:49 AM

I share the same concerns with the infiltrator, all we can hope is that the infiltrator will be given their own tools and tech tree so we have weapons and tools more tailored for infiltrating, hopefully a lot of them tools will allow you to actually remain undetected rather than being essentially just another combat unit with cloaking and limited combat capability.

sylphaen · 2012-01-23, 04:12 AM

I agree with Vash that what was done with PS2 could have been done in PS1: no timers on recerting.

The difference in PS2 is that you can be BR40 and get access to everything, the restriction is a the equipment level when you choose your spawn class. They also could have done the same in PS1 by giving restrictions to specific cert combinations (e.g.: Medic cert unavailable if you are certed for Heavy Assault, etc...)

Essentially, I agree with Vash that PS2 is making players fit into a role over which they have less control. There is no "make your own class" in PS2. Just a "Customize how you want to play the defined class you chose".

I'm waiting to see PS2 for further judgment. They may give customization choices that blend classes into hybrid roles.

I think PS may lose its depth of gameplay and immersiveness from PS1 (mainly because PS1 downtimes, while boring, made the most intense moments great - PS2 will be fast paced non-stop shoot-em-up).

Don't get me wrong, I loved ET:RtcW: it was an intense, fast paced shooter with classes and some limited character advancement through "campaigns" (sets of 3-6 maps played in cycles).

I loved PS1 for other reasons though.

I may or may not love PS2 but one thing is certain: PS2 will not be the PlanetSide experience we had with PS1. And I'm sure that while trying to update the gameplay, the devs are trying really hard to keep/recapture the best of PS1 using a different gameplay format.

Whether the new recipe is a success or a disappointing blend of BF boring gameplay with a hint of PS, we will only know at release.

Edit: FYI, I say BF has boring gameplay because demopack bunny hopping on no-FF servers is worse than irritating in my book and simply does not entertain me. Almost as much as instant 360 degree entrance into vehicles. Those gameplay highlights along a few others are what keep me far far away from the BF style games.

Edit2: and I agree that for PS1, the only problem with the cert system was the increasing the BR max level. Then again, some people wouldn't play a game if it was not for the carrot and revenue came in if people stayed subbed. Unfortunately, once the PS2 product is released, nothing prevents the same kind of nonsense to happen (i.e. choosing the terribly wrong but easy solution instead of fixing the problem's source).

DOUBLEXBAUGH · 2012-01-23, 06:24 AM

Said it before, PS1 wasn't a problem till BR40. Now PS2 is BR40, you just have to stay close to an equipment term. So out in a field fight you will be in your 1 man tank/plane, then indoors you will just need to run back to terms instead of running back to heal/repair. PS2 system = BR40.