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Old 2003-09-04, 06:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #16
Madcow
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Good lord, Elf. And to think not too long ago you were making statements about how smug I was.

You're right, though. I misinterpreted his initial post, overstated his argument for him as it were. Not that this actually changes any of my points about voting with the consumer dollar to voice displeasure (not purchasing the expansion certainly hurts Sony less than cancelling, but it still hurts). I'll let you gloss over those points if you need to, however.
Companies spend billions of dollars trying to instill such brand loyalty. I will never cease to be amazed at the people who gladly bend over even when a company treats them poorly. I honestly hope Sony can pull this out, but so far I think they're doing a textbook job of how not to handle it.
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Old 2003-09-04, 07:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #17
Happy lil Elf
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Ok, Mad, I wasn't trying to come off as smug. I was more than a little annoyed by a few things when I wrote it though and after reading it yes, I did come of just a bit upitty there. You have my appologis for that. I just didn't know how else to get that point across because I had already gone through it twice. Again, I'm not trying to be smug, especially not with you.

No, I don't need to gloss over your consumer dollar argument. I simply don't refute it. Yes canceling of subscriptions, if done by enough people, will start to hit Sony. Will it change their polocies? Probably not but it is certainly worth a try if you feel strongly enough that things need to change. I've never been against people leaving the game if they feel it isn't going in a direction they like or they feel they aren't getting enough bang for their buck. It's their choice. Will I continue to argue against things I don't agree with? Absolutely.

Number two it's definately not brand name loyalty. My opinion of SoE leaves a ton of room for inprovment. Something I've also stated elsewhere is I come from a pretty long MMO background, as I'm sure many others do. What impresses me about this game, or rather this dev team, in comparison to the other MMOs I've play/play is the amount of work that has gone into it in just three and a half months. That is what keeps me optomistic for the future and is one of the primary reasons I continue my subscription. Not because I have any loyalty for SoE, but because I honestly think if given time, and assuming they can make it through the idiocy that is SoE long enough to have that time, they can make this a great game rather than just a decent FPS.
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Old 2003-09-04, 07:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #18
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Re: Elf


Oh goody, here we go again.

First off lets pigeon hole the tribes analagy for a moment it was an analagy nothing more and once again i should have identified it as such very implicitly.
More than ok by me.

Elf
If it is as you put forth and our "free" content was delayed due to bug fixes and weapons balancing doesnt that show negligence on the part of the design team. THey knew that weapons balancing was needed from back in beta, they work for SOE they knew that they whould need to set aside man hours for bug fixes. So where was the crime, in making promises they knew they couldnt keep when people pointed out that while the game was good it was certainly lacking some "meat" and in response they said 'Well heres what were working on" or were they negligent for not thinking "Hey we might have to fix CTD bugs."
The devs knew the game wasn't ready, but guess what. When the guy on top says the game will be released on such and such date, the game will be released on that date ready or not.

I've said many times I think the game should have been released sometime in August instead of May. MMOs being what they are, that didn't happen.

Thirdly lets admit to ourselves that maybe catch phrases usualy have some basis of fact, maybe you feel it was an unfair label in your case and I will concede that and apologize if i offended you, however all I'm saying is that's what it looks like to me.
Next time just use an argument, catch phrases are less than worthless

Old and easily counterable arguments how about old and party lines retorts.

Heres an old line of logic for you.

I buy a game, at the same price as a stand alone game, however this one I'm required to pay a monthly fee or it's more or less worthless to me. I agree to do that because I like the game, I understand that I am paying for server upkeep necissary to keep the big battles which no other game offers going, and that more free content is promised.

Fast foreward four months, less then half of the content promised since beta is delivered up and their talking about making me pay again the same price (i'm guestimating) as i whould of an expansion for a stand alone game, plus my monthly fee, when they havnt kept witht he promises in the original package.
The expansion will most likely by $30 going by my past dealings with SoE but that's not really all that important to your anology. I agree wholeheartedly. If you don't think you're getting your moneys worth then by all means cancel. The reason you would stick with it is you realize a few things about the MMO genre. Those things being first, no MMO is released complete and in fact some don't reach maturity until a year after their release. Second, fixes should always come before new content. Bugs need to be squashed and, since it's an MMO, it will have been released before it was ready and bugs will still be abundant at launch. Third because of these things the success or failure an MMO can quite frankly come down to solely the patience or lackthereof of the players who play it.

I'm aware of those things and taking into account the amount of work that has gone into the game in the last 3 and a half months I'm very optomistic that the Dev team can turn this into a great game in time, and so I continue my subscription.

Lets try another analagy, lets say your a company and lets say you purchase a coffee refining plant from another company, and they promise to provide you with A) Beans B) Upgrades to your existing plant over time. Four months down the road they've delivered beans yes, but not in the quantities you've hoped, and they've only delivered about half their promised upgrades to your existing plant. Now they want to sell you another plant.

Do you A) Continue to toss money at them even though they've proven borderline unethical B) Cut your losses.

Thats the situation as I see it facing the PS community.
I assume you mean this to be compareable to keeping a $12.95 subscription, which is laughable. You're comparing $13 or even granting you your 3 months of $13 and a $50 game $92 to hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. Not only that but one is entertainment, the other is business. Apples and oranges. Now that we have that out of the way, no of course not. That would be putting your livelyhood and the livelyhood of all your employees on the line. Again, not compareable to paying a monthly subscription fee for a video game.
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Old 2003-09-05, 04:11 AM   [Ignore Me] #19
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Elf your missing the point by once again diving too deeply into somethign that was borderline metaphor to begin with. My point is when someone fails to hold up their end of a commitment, whether it is the guy who cheats me out of a hundred dollars at cards or the waiter who shorts me two bucks change on an italion soda, i still consider it the same crime. Varying degrees yes but still a crime, and therefore basis to terminate our relations. You can make whatever excuses for the dev team you wish but at the end of the day the facts are still the same. They are continuing to make promises they've shown no signs of keeping whjile steaming ahead with plans to get more money out of us, that's fine, the world economy thrives on gullible fat dumb and happy consumers. It will continue to do so until people wake up and maybe expect big business to hold itself accountable in that small business is.
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Old 2003-09-05, 04:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #20
shadowseed
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Im sorry, but fixing bugs is something they should do on there own merit. I have to agree with Nimbus, they should be working on giving us the new content they promised.

And by new content, i mean, new vechicals, weapons, ground stuff etc, not bug fixes or balancing tweeks, as those are things they should and have to do regardless of any promises they made to us.

Istead, they have spent a hugh amount of time and human resourse, not delivering on the promises for new free content, but creating a expansion pack with lots of new content that we have to pay for....

that sux!
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Old 2003-09-05, 04:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #21
Flammey
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*Snore* *snort* What, what? *Yawn* I'm sorry, I fell asleep half way through the meditation.
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Old 2003-09-05, 05:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #22
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Originally posted by Happy lil' Elf
No, I don't need to gloss over your consumer dollar argument. I simply don't refute it. Yes canceling of subscriptions, if done by enough people, will start to hit Sony. Will it change their polocies? Probably not but it is certainly worth a try if you feel strongly enough that things need to change. I've never been against people leaving the game if they feel it isn't going in a direction they like or they feel they aren't getting enough bang for their buck. It's their choice. Will I continue to argue against things I don't agree with? Absolutely.

Number two it's definately not brand name loyalty. My opinion of SoE leaves a ton of room for inprovment. Something I've also stated elsewhere is I come from a pretty long MMO background, as I'm sure many others do. What impresses me about this game, or rather this dev team, in comparison to the other MMOs I've play/play is the amount of work that has gone into it in just three and a half months. That is what keeps me optomistic for the future and is one of the primary reasons I continue my subscription. Not because I have any loyalty for SoE, but because I honestly think if given time, and assuming they can make it through the idiocy that is SoE long enough to have that time, they can make this a great game rather than just a decent FPS.
Ah you seem to get the poor delusion that because i'm posting about my concern and desire to quit that I'm trying to influence Sony's policies. This is not the case, while yes it whould be fantastic if Sony looked and said "Holy shit the playerbase has shrunk a whopping 80% since beta (a guestimation based on server dots) maybe we really need to take a hard looka t our pcoesses and find out either what were doing wrong, or what wer enot doing enough of. I simply feel that when I feel the quality of a product has dropped off I shall no longer purchase it. No big change the world mentality just an overwhelming dissatisfaction with the situation.

So what actualy inflamed you so about my post, refresh my memory, you maintain that the dev team is working hard, I happen to doubt this, I'm not saying that what manpower that have allowcated is not working hard, however I believe that bug fixes are a given part of the product development cycle. I believe that any changes to the lasher pulsar etc are merely changing variables on the weapons tables, to add salt to that wound they always screw it up when it first goes live, hence all this buff, oh shit nerf, style game balancing. Bottom line their not keeping up on their promises, and propisng bug fixes as a reason just casts them in an even more pathetic light.
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Old 2003-09-05, 02:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #23
Happy lil Elf
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Elf your missing the point by once again diving too deeply into somethign that was borderline metaphor to begin with. My point is when someone fails to hold up their end of a commitment, whether it is the guy who cheats me out of a hundred dollars at cards or the waiter who shorts me two bucks change on an italion soda, i still consider it the same crime. Varying degrees yes but still a crime, and therefore basis to terminate our relations.
Holy exageration, Batman! A broken promise is not a crime. A broken contract? Sure, but please by all means show me your conract with SoE that promises you anything regarding new content or the timeframe in which it would be released. Is it grounds to terminate your business dealings. Sure, and I've said that over and over. If you want to cancel, put your money where your mouth is and do it already. I've always said if people don't like the game or don't feel it's worth their subscription they should cancel, because to do otherwise would be stupid.
They are continuing to make promises they've shown no signs of keeping whjile steaming ahead with plans to get more money out of us
Bullshit. How exactly can you say they've made no signs of keeping the promises? Base incentives are rumored to be rolling out to test soon and Platoons have been bumped up on the list.
Ah you seem to get the poor delusion that because i'm posting about my concern and desire to quit that I'm trying to influence Sony's policies.
Ah, you seem to be under the poor delusion that post was talking to you and not Madcow.
So what actualy inflamed you so about my post, refresh my memory
I was inflamed? Umm..ok.
, you maintain that the dev team is working hard, I happen to doubt this, I'm not saying that what manpower that have allowcated is not working hard, however I believe that bug fixes are a given part of the product development cycle.
Bingo! You've got it now, the game is still under development. That's how MMO's work, which is the point you apparently missed or ignored. Every MMO that's been released has still been under development months after release. If that doesn't appeal to you don't buy MMO games. Or at the least wait until a minimum of six months have passed before purchasing them. This isn't a new issue, it's been around as long as the genre itself.

What it comes down to is a difference of opinion on this I guess, Doppler. You don't think the Devs are working hard enough for your money, I do. We could, and if someone doesn't end it probably would, argue forever over that but I know you won't convince me and I'm sure I probably won't convince you. Not because I have some sort of obscure loyalty, to SoE or the Devs, but because I've seen evidence that the Devs want this game to be great and are working towards that goal.
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Its eating it's food. (Incorrect use of apostrophes specifically for UV)
"Oni wont get banned, unless you get banned. Its a 2 man ticket."-Hamma to TekDragon re: his request to ban Oni. Life is good.

Last edited by Happy lil Elf; 2003-09-05 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 2003-09-06, 02:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #24
Doppler
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I wish I had your faith elf, I really wish I did. I used to be really psyched about this game, truth be told I really am, youll get on for a few mins and it will be pure bliss, make you forget the crash bugs and all that other crap.

Truth be told sine I doubt Ill be giving up my planetside habit soon and since I know it will make me want to pull my hair out when others can do the expansion vehicles weapons etc and I can't I will most likely end up buying the stupid expansion. Do I think the SOE marketing department were temps hired from either the 5th ring of hell or Philip Morris? Yes most likely, I cant blame them for exploiting a bankable resource but man I just want my platoons and my heavy transport, is that too much to ask.
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