Lancer NEEDS to be buffed. - Page 2

Veteran · 2003-09-16, 04:42 PM

These threads always degenerate into blatantly partisan, sweeping generalizations. I highly recommend playing all three empires on three different servers. You'll learn quickly what actually requires skill, which it turns out is every weapon system.

If one empire was full of assets that didn't require skill (as suggested of the TR a couple replies up), that empire would lock every continent on a daily basis. Visions of an empire full of 'more skilled' players are illusions; every empire has amazingly consistent statistics, given how many players there are.

I think the devs have done a good job. I still wish they'd make enemy assets available at enemy terminals, but that's probably going to end up like my dream of visiting the Playboy Mansion and learning I've become Hef's heir. I'll live.

Doop · 2003-09-16, 04:45 PM

Lol, apparently I posted the knife dueling tournament in here. I meant to post a topic. -_- A mod can delete that post.

JetRaiden · 2003-09-16, 05:48 PM

As we know, us TR have the almighty Striker, and NC have the godlike Pheonix, whereas VS just sit there with their toy popgun, the Lancer. Jesus, does it suck. Dumbfire, extremely weak, etc. They need to at least make it be able to track onto vehcs like the Striker, or greatly improve it's damage.

wow....this...this is sad. dont you remember? when the lasher got nerfed for obvious reasons about 1 1/2 months ago? every vanu out there was a agile with a lasher on his back.

godlike pheonix...heh.....

however, I will try not to whine, for my sides are splitting in laughter. thats doop, and keep up the idiotic rants, we could always use some cheap entertainment on these forums....

00AgentDuck · 2003-09-16, 06:53 PM

These threads always degenerate into blatantly partisan, sweeping generalizations. I highly recommend playing all three empires on three different servers. You'll learn quickly what actually requires skill, which it turns out is every weapon system.

I totatlly agree with you on this one, everyone, try playing all three empires to see how all three fair against each other, it helps. But, also take into account if you think something is very strong, one chance is that your empire you are currently playing with is the minority for that day's population, and that there are very many people with whatever killed you. Basically, if there are normally 3 magriders at a base when you get on but that day there are 9, you are about 3 times more likly to get run over. Other statistics may also come into play wether you think something is to strong or to weak.

And finnally, AV is only from what I've seen, effective in groups. You try and take on a magrider with a striker alone, you are asking to be mowed.

dscytherulez · 2003-09-16, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by 00AgentDuck
I totatlly agree with you on this one, everyone, try playing all three empires to see how all three fair against each other, it helps. But, also take into account if you think something is very strong, one chance is that your empire you are currently playing with is the minority for that day's population, and that there are very many people with whatever killed you. Basically, if there are normally 3 magriders at a base when you get on but that day there are 9, you are about 3 times more likly to get run over. Other statistics may also come into play wether you think something is to strong or to weak.

And finnally, AV is only from what I've seen, effective in groups. You try and take on a magrider with a striker alone, you are asking to be mowed.

Yup...indeed, saved me some typing lol

DarkDragon00 · 2003-09-16, 11:26 PM

ive never played Vanu cuz i guess i just dont like them. Everyone Bitches about the MCG... dude its not that good, if ur outside and all u have a a MCG and a Repeator use the friggin repeater, ull actually hit something. now the strike damage is not all that goos, and its gay against anything not armored. The prowler with both gunners will run over almost no one becuase they would die faster from gun fire.

This is how i see the AV Weapons

Striker

Damage- Medium
Special- Lock On
Disadvantage- Crap Damage on Infantry, DumbFire Only Useful Against Stationary targets
Bonus- Can Take Air Out Quickly, 3 rounds

Pheonix

Damage- Large
Special- Control
Disadvantages- Stationary while controling, Crap against Infantry, Hard time hitting air, Reload after each missle
Bonus-

Lancer

Damage- Light-Medium
Special- Near Instant Hit
Disadvantages- Skill Required
Bonus- Good Against Infantry, Large Clip Size

If anything the pheonix could use a little more fine tuning. Now im a TR player ONLY and i love the pheonix but im seeing less and less of them for a reason... they arent that good in a battlefield where circumstances change alot. Its not a flexible weapon....

-Dark- Out

shadowseed · 2003-09-17, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Doop
As we know, us TR have the almighty Striker, and NC have the godlike Pheonix, whereas VS just sit there with their toy popgun, the Lancer. Jesus, does it suck. Dumbfire, extremely weak, etc. They need to at least make it be able to track onto vehcs like the Striker, or greatly improve it's damage.

It has to be the worst AV weapon, MAX, anything. I find it useless for nothing. The only thing it could be of use for is an abandoned Wraith.

Pop gun ???. It has brill damage and super-long range... plus the driver gets no tell-tale lock on warning.

The VS have gone soft, usign weapons such as the lasher, when not much aim is required, you just let the splash do the damage. This weapon requires you to "aim", which can be hard and suck ass, but it rewards you when you hit!. And its perfect for taking out turrets.

Knuckles · 2003-09-17, 05:43 AM

Striker

Damage- Medium
Special- Lock On
Disadvantage- Crap Damage on Infantry, DumbFire Only Useful Against Stationary targets
Bonus- Can Take Air Out Quickly, 3 rounds

Pheonix

Damage- Large
Special- Control
Disadvantages- Stationary while controling, Crap against Infantry, Hard time hitting air, Reload after each missle
Bonus-

Lancer

Damage- Light-Medium
Special- Near Instant Hit
Disadvantages- Skill Required
Bonus- Good Against Infantry, Large Clip Size

This is pretty close to the truth. (Can we at least agree on that?)

Let me tell You why I don�t think that the Lancer is a good AV weapon, and why I decerted in it (and went Decimator instead).

1. Hit probability

Much of it lies right here. I don�t care if You have mad skills or not � You will miss a lot with the Lancer on moving targets, due to warm up time and reticule bloom. IMO the other factions AV weapons don�t suffer from this problem (to the same degree). They either have target lock or the ability to control the missile.

How about stationary targets then? No problem at all for the Lancer. Works really good here, but then again, so does every other AV weapon.

2. Window

When dealing with moving targets, You have a time frame, a window, where You have the chance to land Your shots (payload) on a target. In that time, You want to put in as much damage as You possibly can.

The striker has the ability to launch all its missiles and *then* paint the target. The player can even move around, strafe or whatever, during this process.

The Phoenix player is immobile while guiding the missile, but it doesn�t matter if he/she is crouched or standing � You basically just whip out the weapon and pull the trigger as soon as the target presents itself (over simplification, I know). The Phoenix also has the ability to extend the window, since it can actually hit targets that runs out of LOS.

With the lancer You crouch (if You aren�t very close) and zoom in. It�s after all nothing but a high powered rifle, and You must at all times try to maximize Your hit probability. Crouching and zooming takes time, which lessens the time of the original maximum window.

3. AV Punch per unit

The Lancer actually carries around a lot of fire power. The most AV all three faction specific AV weapons (per ammo box), if I remember it correctly. The thing is that the Decimator carries even more. (This was what really made me switch.)

One Decimator hit (400 damage), for example, equals 3.2 Lancer hits (125 damage). (Couple this with the window reasoning above. Many a time that window is very short and perhaps You only have time to squeeze one or two shots off � with my reasoning I maximize the possible damage per time unit by choosing the Decimator over the Lancer.)

4. AI damage

Yeah � the Lancer is a pretty good sniper gun (although costly, ammo wise). A lot of TR and NC complain about this, while a lot of VS like this feature and argues that it makes the weapon versatile (which supposedly should be a VS treat).

For myself I don�t like i. I don�t care for a weapon that doubles as a sniper rifle, if I don�t feel that the weapon performs as well as I want it to, in its primary role. Needless to say I�m one of those who has been advocating an AI nerf on the Lancer, if it at the same time would have its AV properties buffed to the same degree. I�m sorry if this upsets any Vanu. All I want is a really good AV weapon. (Lets see what comes out of that balance sweep that the devs are working on.)

5. Conclusion

So I wanted a good AV weapon� Did I find it? Not sure (as in �not sure if I wouldn't have been happier with a Striker�, but that�s beside the point, isn�t it). The range of AV weapons, when it comes to handling and use, are quite limited for the Vanu.

I chose the Decimator. It handles pretty much like the Lancer. It�s a pure, rifle styled, LOS weapon. If I weigh in all the things I wrote about above, I think my trade of certifications turned out pretty well. If You consider that You also get the Rocklet and the Thumper (which has a multitude of uses and strengths), the choice was easy.

IMO � for the Vanu - three BR points are much better spent in Special Assault than in the Anti Vehicular cert for the Lancer.

Knuckles · 2003-09-17, 07:29 AM

The VS have gone soft, usign weapons such as the lasher, when not much aim is required, you just let the splash do the damage.

I think You are very much wrong.

If anything, the Lasher requires aim � and then some. Due to the slow orb speed we must often predict where our opponents will be once the orbs reach him/her. This is the single biggest drawback of the Lasher (and several other Vanu weapons) � the slow projectile speed.

What many asked for on the original version of the Lasher, was an orb speed increase and a slight damage increase. What we got was an increased ROF (� You know the rest).

It�s called the spam-lasher for a reason. Yeah, We do �spam� with it, but have You asked Yourself why we spam with it? Is it because that we simply don�t know better? That we are hopeless noobs? That we simply suck and/or lack skills? That we, in some weird way, are trying to �get some tactics�, that all those helpful NC and TR folks keep telling us?

No!

Believe me � we are desperately trying to hit You!

There�s no other Medium Assault, or Heavy Assault weapon, that You can counteract in such a simple way, as to simply strafe. That�s all You have to do � strafe � and You have utilized what�s PS equivalent of a �get out of jail for free� card. Sure � You might get hit by the lashes but it does piddly damage compared to a direct hit.

The diameter around the orb, where the lashing takes place, is 3 meters (and no lashing takes place within 5 meters from the muzzle of the Lasher). An agile, for example, can strafe 6.5 meters per second. (Chew on that for a while�)

IMO the Lasher is one of the weapons that are the hardest to use effectively.

shadowseed · 2003-09-17, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Knuckles
I think You are very much wrong.

If anything, the Lasher requires aim � and then some. Due to the slow orb speed we must often predict where our opponents will be once the orbs reach him/her. This is the single biggest drawback of the Lasher (and several other Vanu weapons) � the slow projectile speed.

... yadda yadda yadda....

within 5 meters from the muzzle of the Lasher). An agile, for example, can strafe 6.5 meters per second. (Chew on that for a while�)

IMO the Lasher is one of the weapons that are the hardest to use effectively.

What planet are you on ?, eaither your a really bad player or just delutional.

Ive seen countless occations where the lasher has been used to "spray & splash" people, hell, ive nicked one and used it myself !!, and GOOD GOD! was it easy to kill people with indoors.

Before the Lasher was so rightfully nerfed, every VS, his mother and her goat were sporting a Lasher, because it was so effective!.

The Dev's nerfed it for a good reason, and whineing about it now aint gonna get it Uber'ed. Its a damn good weapon and more than a match for TR & NC's Heavy guns. Every empires H weapon has its plus's and minus's:

VS Lasher: Slow orb speed.
NC JH: Only effective at short range.
TR MG: Cumbersom ? (you TR's out there tell me, ive used one breifly and found it quite effective, but not had much experiance in it).

Flammey · 2003-09-17, 08:24 AM

I didn't bother reading everyone's answer. Here's mine...

I've used every single weapon in the game as a Vanu. I love JH close range, I love Striker for anti Air, Lancer is awesome in a pinch to take out MAx's, Infantry, ground vehicles, and base defenses. I do very well when I am carrying any weapon. I guess it's just that I take what weapons that I think I'm going to need, weither it's weaponry on my side, or TR and NC weaponry.
I've used the Gauss, and OMG does it blow ass. Frikin Supressor works way better. Or maybe if's just that I'm used to the Supressor.

noxious · 2003-09-17, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Knuckles
This is pretty close to the truth. (Can we at least agree on that?)

Let me tell You why I don�t think that the Lancer is a good AV weapon, and why I decerted in it (and went Decimator instead).

1. Hit probability

Much of it lies right here. I don�t care if You have mad skills or not � You will miss a lot with the Lancer on moving targets, due to warm up time and reticule bloom. IMO the other factions AV weapons don�t suffer from this problem (to the same degree). They either have target lock or the ability to control the missile.

How about stationary targets then? No problem at all for the Lancer. Works really good here, but then again, so does every other AV weapon.

The Lancer excells at hitting moving targets once you take the time to learn it. Vehicles have the disadvantage of momentum. When they move in one direction, they will still be moving in that direction 1/2 second later. All one has to do is lead the target a half a second and the reticule will have settled down by the time the target is in range. The same can be said for maxes, they can't dodge due to their slow speed (or low manuverability). Does it take some practice? Yes, but once you've learned it, you'll hit litertally everything except perhaps moving wraiths/basilisks and aircraft. Only at extreme range is it possible to miss after some practice, and at this point, the stryker and phoenix have a severe travel time disadvantage so we're fairly balanced.

2. Window

When dealing with moving targets, You have a time frame, a window, where You have the chance to land Your shots (payload) on a target. In that time, You want to put in as much damage as You possibly can.

The striker has the ability to launch all its missiles and *then* paint the target. The player can even move around, strafe or whatever, during this process.

The Phoenix player is immobile while guiding the missile, but it doesn�t matter if he/she is crouched or standing � You basically just whip out the weapon and pull the trigger as soon as the target presents itself (over simplification, I know). The Phoenix also has the ability to extend the window, since it can actually hit targets that runs out of LOS.

With the lancer You crouch (if You aren�t very close) and zoom in. It�s after all nothing but a high powered rifle, and You must at all times try to maximize Your hit probability. Crouching and zooming takes time, which lessens the time of the original maximum window.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. All weapons have a "window" where their target can be hit. It's LOS, or no LOS. The phoenix is the only weapon which can say otherwise. Crouching and zooming takes less than a second, probably less than half a second. Your gun takes longer to draw than it takes to crouch and acquire a good shot on a target.

3. AV Punch per unit

The Lancer actually carries around a lot of fire power. The most AV all three faction specific AV weapons (per ammo box), if I remember it correctly. The thing is that the Decimator carries even more. (This was what really made me switch.)

One Decimator hit (400 damage), for example, equals 3.2 Lancer hits (125 damage). (Couple this with the window reasoning above. Many a time that window is very short and perhaps You only have time to squeeze one or two shots off � with my reasoning I maximize the possible damage per time unit by choosing the Decimator over the Lancer.)

The deci has it's merits. As a hit-and-run max killer indoors it excells. Outdoors, it's a slow moving rocket of death which is really only efficient on stationary vehicles or vehicles that are very close to you.

4. AI damage

Yeah � the Lancer is a pretty good sniper gun (although costly, ammo wise). A lot of TR and NC complain about this, while a lot of VS like this feature and argues that it makes the weapon versatile (which supposedly should be a VS treat).

For myself I don�t like i. I don�t care for a weapon that doubles as a sniper rifle, if I don�t feel that the weapon performs as well as I want it to, in its primary role. Needless to say I�m one of those who has been advocating an AI nerf on the Lancer, if it at the same time would have its AV properties buffed to the same degree. I�m sorry if this upsets any Vanu. All I want is a really good AV weapon. (Lets see what comes out of that balance sweep that the devs are working on.)

I pretty much agree with you here. Well, I don't mind it's AI ability, but it is rather ammo consumptious and I only use it in base defence when shooting from walls.

5. Conclusion

So I wanted a good AV weapon� Did I find it? Not sure (as in �not sure if I wouldn't have been happier with a Striker�, but that�s beside the point, isn�t it). The range of AV weapons, when it comes to handling and use, are quite limited for the Vanu.

I chose the Decimator. It handles pretty much like the Lancer. It�s a pure, rifle styled, LOS weapon. If I weigh in all the things I wrote about above, I think my trade of certifications turned out pretty well. If You consider that You also get the Rocklet and the Thumper (which has a multitude of uses and strengths), the choice was easy.

IMO � for the Vanu - three BR points are much better spent in Special Assault than in the Anti Vehicular cert for the Lancer.

At least you were smart enough to state "IMO," as this post is also simply in my opinion.

Indecisive · 2003-09-17, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Knuckles
I think You are very much wrong.

If anything, the Lasher requires aim � and then some. Due to the slow orb speed we must often predict where our opponents will be once the orbs reach him/her. This is the single biggest drawback of the Lasher (and several other Vanu weapons) � the slow projectile speed.

What many asked for on the original version of the Lasher, was an orb speed increase and a slight damage increase. What we got was an increased ROF (� You know the rest).

It�s called the spam-lasher for a reason. Yeah, We do �spam� with it, but have You asked Yourself why we spam with it? Is it because that we simply don�t know better? That we are hopeless noobs? That we simply suck and/or lack skills? That we, in some weird way, are trying to �get some tactics�, that all those helpful NC and TR folks keep telling us?

No!

Believe me � we are desperately trying to hit You!

There�s no other Medium Assault, or Heavy Assault weapon, that You can counteract in such a simple way, as to simply strafe. That�s all You have to do � strafe � and You have utilized what�s PS equivalent of a �get out of jail for free� card. Sure � You might get hit by the lashes but it does piddly damage compared to a direct hit.

The diameter around the orb, where the lashing takes place, is 3 meters (and no lashing takes place within 5 meters from the muzzle of the Lasher). An agile, for example, can strafe 6.5 meters per second. (Chew on that for a while�)

IMO the Lasher is one of the weapons that are the hardest to use effectively.

What planet are you on ?, eaither your a really bad player or just delutional.

Ive seen countless occations where the lasher has been used to "spray & splash" people, hell, ive nicked one and used it myself !!, and GOOD GOD! was it easy to kill people with indoors.

Before the Lasher was so rightfully nerfed, every VS, his mother and her goat were sporting a Lasher, because it was so effective!.

The Dev's nerfed it for a good reason, and whineing about it now aint gonna get it Uber'ed. Its a damn good weapon and more than a match for TR & NC's Heavy guns. Every empires H weapon has its plus's and minus's:

VS Lasher: Slow orb speed.
NC JH: Only effective at short range.
TR MG: Cumbersom ? (you TR's out there tell me, ive used one breifly and found it quite effective, but not had much experiance in it)..

Did you even read his post man? What is the point of even replying to this damn thread.

Knuckles= right

GeistX · 2003-09-18, 03:29 PM

My only compliant about the Lancer is ammo box size, its a damn big box (which I am sure the other AV weapons share), but otherwise it is highly effective. Fast rate of fire and as stated a few posts back, no lock on warning! Which is nice. It fits in perfectly with the VS 'ideology' (i.e. energy weapons) as it is very flexible.

Spee · 2003-09-18, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Veteran
These threads always degenerate into blatantly partisan, sweeping generalizations. I highly recommend playing all three empires on three different servers. You'll learn quickly what actually requires skill, which it turns out is every weapon system.

A-friggin'-Men.