No Significant Changes to JH - Page 2

Incompetent · 2004-01-20, 09:39 AM

Find a workaround!

The only workaround i've found so far is beating the living shit out of my keyboard and mouse then tearing the power cord out of the wall socket, cursing constantly.

The jackhammer, along with the vanguard, reaver, HART and HA in general, are total bullshit, and the game would be greatly improved if they were nerfed out of existence.

Veteran · 2004-01-20, 09:47 AM

Incompetent,

Haven't you been warned about your constant logic and reasonable attitude?

Seriously, it's like you're trying to help the game by pointing out these glaring disparities.

/sarcasm. Keep on fighting the good fight.

infinite loop · 2004-01-20, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by SpunkJackel

I dunno Morik, maybe you havent seen enough Jack users. I'm fairly sure that 2 alt fire shots with Armor piercing ammo from the jack kill a max. Thats two clicks of the mouse, I mean I picked up SA just to do that with the deci, if my HA could do that i would be on cloud nine.

No, it actually takes a little more than a full clip of AP rounds to kill a MAX with the JH. I've heard rumors that the triple-shot damage against MAXes is even bugged, and doesn't register, but I've never tried it out. Anyway, using secondary mode on a MAX is just a bad idea in general.

infinite loop · 2004-01-20, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Incompetent

The only workaround i've found so far is beating the living shit out of my keyboard and mouse then tearing the power cord out of the wall socket, cursing constantly.

The jackhammer, along with the vanguard, reaver, HART and HA in general, are total bullshit, and the game would be greatly improved if they were nerfed out of existence.

I honestly don't understand you guys who want to get rid of HA. All those things you listed are incredibly fun to use (minus the hart), and a video game is supposed to be fun for alot of different players, right? So where's the logic in removing fun?

Incompetent · 2004-01-20, 11:06 AM

Having a cycler that shoots 150mm shots and 10000 hit points would be fun for me, who thinks i should get it?

infinite loop · 2004-01-20, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Incompetent

Having a cycler that shoots 150mm shots and 10000 hit points would be fun for me, who thinks i should get it?

If your argument is going to consist of throwing around rediculously overblown examples, then I'm done here.

Incompetent · 2004-01-20, 11:08 AM

My arguement is whats fun or convenient for one person makes the game suck for everyone else.

Veteran · 2004-01-20, 11:10 AM

I think he means that a cert cannot be balanced by its point cost. Consider the BFG, a mythical weapon that costs 23 certs to use. It fires 10,000 shots per second and each one deals 100,000 damage. Is 23 certs enough to balance this? No. Cert cost is not factorial when considering a cert's power, and thus Heavy Assault cannot be justified by its four cert cost even though it's the BFG of the game.

PlanetSide would be just as fun without Heavy Assault. While Surge persists, and especially now that Reinforced Exosuit is about to get a _massive_ buff, Heavy Assault will be the premier tool for ownage.

As for Vanguard, 6,000 armor and the biggest damage, splash radius and potential to be used in similar fashion to the Flail make the argument that it is indeed the premier ownage machine. As for Reaver, same deal. It's an airplane that can kill any other unit with its missiles. Should one man have the option to kill any unit? Hard call. Look at how often they stress that AV is meant to be 'used in groups'.

Perhaps SOE needs to ask Blizzard how they balanced their three factions. I'd be genuinely amused to hear people relate stories of the balance between Terrans, Protoss and Zerg as opposed to the Terrans, Vanu and New Cong.

BTW, I am drinking vodka again, compliments of TR high command, so don't bust my chops.

infinite loop · 2004-01-20, 11:15 AM

But there's a point where one weapon in a game is rediculously imbalanced, and pretty much makes the game suck for everyone. Not 100% of the people in a game like this will ever like all the weapons, but I bet you most people don't think HA is rediculously imbalanced. There are plenty of counters for HA, that are extremely effective, including using your HA.

If your desire is to have a more realistic shooter, then a whole lotta shit besides HA needs to be removed, and then it would be a completely different game. But this game isn't realistic, and has alot of powerful, but fun, weapons. If your flavor of game is more along the lines of Rainbow Six or CS, then PS probably won't ever be what you want.

infinite loop · 2004-01-20, 11:19 AM

Vet I truly understand your argument, but I couldn't disagree more. I think HA is perfectly priced for it's value vs other weapons. MA only costs 2 certs, and can be extremely lethal. For double the points, I expect to have a more powerful weapon. I don't see the huge disparity there, like you guys seem to. HA is not a BFG.

And like I said earlier, just removing HA would not make the game more fun, unless you remove MAXes, special assault, reavers, tanks, heavy buggies...oh wait, what's left? No thanks.

Veteran · 2004-01-20, 11:20 AM

You raise a valid argument, infinite loop.

It's impossible for a game to be all things to all people.

Thus, the headaches.

KIAsan · 2004-01-20, 08:19 PM

Sticking to the intent of the thread, there is no basis to complain about the JH, since the devs DESIGNED it to own everyone indoors.

However, since someone brought up balance, if you have two players, on an NC jackhammer, the other a opposing empire HA (doesn't matter which). Both are fighting each other in a tower with equal skill, the JH will win (since that is how it is designed). That is fun for the NC player, but how is it fair (fun) for the other guy? Well, there is a counter you say. I'm curious as to what that would be? You can give me the "range" argument all you want, but the fights that count (for base/tower caps) occur indoors.

Ahh, but other weapons/certs balance the J/H, since HA was not intended to balance each other. Ok, lets bring this example to a combined arms look (using TR since that is what I am most familiar with). I will use the assumption that all players are of equal skill and br.

NC own a tower. They have 1 scat max, 1 vanguard and 10 JHs guarding.

TR attack with 1 pounder, 1 prowler and 10 MCGs (at this point TR is already at a disadvantage as they must field one extra person than NC). The van owns the prowler, since it is designed as the most powerfull tank. The max charges thru the door, backed by MCGs. The scat max takes out the pounder, the JHs take out the MCGs. Since all things being equal, the pounder can't lock down to use it's special ability, while the scat can use its shield to protect against the pounder, then while it is reloading, kill it. Oh, but the TR can use deci's to kill the scat? Yeah, and the NC can use deci's to kill the pounder. So, based on this scenario, where is the balance? If you throw in AV, then the pounder dies before it reaches the tower.

I am not posting this to whine about TR. But, I would like a common sense explanation on how this is balanced. What empire specific weapon can TR deploy in this case to counter the JH?

Queensidecastle · 2004-01-21, 09:50 AM

Sticking to the intent of the thread, there is no basis to complain about the JH, since the devs DESIGNED it to own everyone indoors.

No, I think the devs wanted it to be "better" and have an "edge" indoors. That isnt at all how it played out. I have said it before but most of what is pissing people off about the JH isnt that it is "better" indoors, its that one-shot kills you. Additionally the Jackhammer can oneshot a trooper in a doorway and kill the hidden infiltrator directly behind them all at the same time. No other weapon can do that (Lasher "lashes" give plenty of time to escape). Finally, given that the JH is the only Heavy assault with a Secondary fire mode and the picture looks very different indeed

Where is the Alt fire mode for the MCG that makes it fire 2x faster?
Where is the Alt fire mode for the Lasher that makes its orbs bigger or more powerfull?

The point is, that there isnt any and people are getting tired of that and the one shot lag warp kills. Like I said before, if the Sniper rifle cant one shot kill, nothing should be able to

infinite loop · 2004-01-21, 11:06 AM

KIAsan - In your example, it does not matter that the NC are the ones holding the tower. If everyone has the same skill, and you match numbers of attackers vs. defenders in a tower, the defenders still have the advantage. The fact that the JH is awesome in a tower has no bearing in that situation. If it were reversed, with the TR holding the tower, then they would have the advantage.

But let's take a step back and look at the argument you are trying to make. You are saying that you feel one empire is more powerful than another inside of a tower. Even if that were the case, it doesn't mean that things are imbalanced. The problem with most balance arguments is that they are looking to balance every weapon class, or certain situations, or each vehicle. But balance is ONLY important across the board. The only question the devs have to answer is, are all 3 empires balanced? The HA weapons do not have to be equal, just like the MAXes don't, and the tanks don't. Each have strengths and weaknesses, and when you find yourself on the losing end of an empire weakness, then it's easy to complain about balance. That's why the game will never be balanced in alot of people's minds, and it's a very tough thing for the devs to do. But I think they've done a great job, and are continuing to make tweaks to maintain across the board balance.

Veteran · 2004-01-21, 11:12 AM

Towers are utterly imbalanced combat zones. Get rid of them. Get rid of them NOW.