Buggies - Page 2

DviddLeff · 2011-02-24, 04:44 AM

Personally I am not content saying tanks are AV, buggies are AI because tanks are supposed to be powerhouses of the battlefield; but get wasted if they get cut off because of their slow speed.

Buggies have the speed to get in and get out of a fight quickly; if they stand still they should die.

So why would you pick a buggy instead of a tank? Lets look at the real world for ideas. The military currently use things like the HMMWV and Land Rovers for fast transport of infantry, recon, rapid assault and to provide fire support for infantry as they patrol. Transport in PS is already catered for with the Deli and variants, so the buggies need to provide fire support for infantry; something the tanks do already.

Therefore the buggies need to be able to be able to rapidly assault the enemy with a decent amount of firepower; something the TR and NC buggies have, but the Thresher lacks because of the comical gun.

Also the buggies need to be cheaper than tanks as they are in the real world, so reduce the cert cost.

Warborn · 2011-02-24, 04:53 AM

What's the point in having a wide variety of vehicles if tanks are the most durable and the best at killing all land targets? Why are they "supposed" to be the best at everything except killing aircraft?

DviddLeff · 2011-02-24, 05:38 AM

Rather than saying "this is AV, that is AI and the other is AA" I am saying that the vehicles could be balanced around three factors:

Armour
Speed
Firepower

Tanks have the highest armour and firepower, but are very slow.
Air cav have high speed, medium fire power and the least armour.
Buggies have medium armour, fire power and speed.

Buggies, while not excelling at any of these, occupies (or should occupy) the middle ground having more time in the combat zone than air cav before they have to retreat, but they are more capable than tanks at falling back to repair by using their speed.

Warborn · 2011-02-24, 07:23 AM

What is the negative associated with giving vehicles actual niches? Why would they not want to say "this vehicle is for AV, this vehicle is for AI, etc"?

Just to point out, what you're suggesting is exactly what they did in PlanetSide, and as it turned out speed was mostly useless because competent gunners can anticipate moving targets pretty accurately, and the net result is that the vehicle with the most armor and firepower becomes the most widely used and vehicles which can't get an inch in on them are relegated to gimmick roles or what you use when you're waiting for your tank timer.

Aractain · 2011-02-24, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Rather than saying "this is AV, that is AI and the other is AA" I am saying that the vehicles could be balanced around three factors:

That works in a solo centric game like UT or something but teamwork is fostered by desireing someone to cover you. Tanks can still hit aircraft but they really want a mobile AA vehicle to stick with them (who ins't useless against other things though).

Tank AOE splash is skillless, sure if you can hit it really close you can do some damage still but lets just say they left the HEAT shells at home. This would imrpove the importance of the coaxial cannons which would still be powerful anti-infantry but cover would mean more and obviously requires more skill.

Now the tanks want the buggys near them too.

IMO its all about trying to inncetivise gameplay, having a choice between fast and slow is only going to end up the same way as is now (hint: mediocre at everything loses).

There is also the idea of buggys being a modular weapons system to improve thier desriability. AA (skygaurd), Artillery (rocket pack on the back of a marauder), Tank destroyer (big fat tank cannon on a buggy but with low DPS, more of a sniper keep your distance weapon).

Timantium · 2011-02-24, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by TRex

Thats why I agreed with (ThePeacemaker? ) on the AGN podcast when someone mentioned allowing the likes of vanguards to interchange their weapon loadouts to be AI /AV/AA , and he quite rightly pointed out all that would do is make the Vanguard the only vehicle you would need .

I'd like them to add newer engineering stuff that you could , say, blow the tracks off a vanguard with mines of a certain type than didnt affect mobile buggies as much. Repairable by an engineer, but render the vehicle an easier target while its steering and movement is impaired.

I guess you would need deployable magenets to hold the magrider down then?

Firefly · 2011-02-24, 08:33 AM

I'm going to do the unthinkable and apply real-world capabilities and intent to Planetside vehicles.

Tanks are the king of the battlefield, particularly modern Abrams-pattern tanks. They're virtually unkillable. Sure you can probably give one a flesh-wound, but they're incredibly powerful. A tank is a show of force. A tank shows up to a gunfight, and people start getting really scared. Or stupid, like the guy that stands in front of an Israeli tank and throws a rock at it. A tank is primarily a tank-killer. That's what it does. It doesn't shoot down jets or helicopters. It has a few machine guns for dealing with any infantry that are stupid enough or brave enough to get close. They're usually used to deal with light targets, though. You don't see a tank firing a shell at a random grunt. Not unless they're desperate or need to vape his position.

Something like a buggy, in this case I'll go with the Marauder since I love my Terran Republic, I see not as a Humvee but as a Ranger Special Operations Vehicle (RSOV). That's basically a stripped down Land Rover Defender that carries three Rangers as its crew. It has an M240 at the front and at the top is either a Fitty-cal or a Mk19 automatic grenade launcher. Excluding the Rangers and any Ranger passengers, it's still a helluva lot of firepower rolling up on an enemy position. I tend to see the Enforcer as an anti-vehicle vehicle but that's because I've driven one a sum total of once.

A Deliverer or its variants I see as a Cougar, MPPV, Combat Tactical Vehicle, armoured Humvee, whatever works for you. Either way, a small troop transport with enough armour to get you there and a gun or two.

The Sunderer I see as a Bradley. It's an infantry fighting vehicle with support guns. Roll it up to the front door, unload the squad of crunchies, give 'em some gunfire cover but don't hit the friendlies.

DviddLeff · 2011-02-24, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

What is the negative associated with giving vehicles actual niches? Why would they not want to say "this vehicle is for AV, this vehicle is for AI, etc"?

Just to point out, what you're suggesting is exactly what they did in PlanetSide, and as it turned out speed was mostly useless because competent gunners can anticipate moving targets pretty accurately, and the net result is that the vehicle with the most armor and firepower becomes the most widely used and vehicles which can't get an inch in on them are relegated to gimmick roles or what you use when you're waiting for your tank timer.

I'm trying to avoid having specific targets for vehicle types because of the customisable vehicle hard point system I have proposed, which would make any vehicle be able to be effective against other targets depending on what they chose to kit the vehicle out with.

That then leaves the armour, speed and size of available weapon hard points as the properties of the chassis, which are pretty important factors.

I think the buggies would be a lot more useful if they did have the customisable weapon hard points as Aractain says, combined with tanks being slightly slower perhaps and there simply being more cover available for the buggies to move behind to avoid tanks heavy weapons.

Regarding tanks being AV, buggies being AI we see that already as well with the VS; the Mag is crap against infantry while the Thresher/Aurora fill the AI role adequately, forcing the VS to field both when the NC and TR just roll Vanguards and Prowlers to do both.

I SandRock · 2011-02-24, 08:46 AM

Removing lock-on weapons would already make buggies a lot better. Give them a little more speed, acceleration and ability to traverse inclinations. Buggies should be fast hitting high speed but vulnerable vehicles. Hit and run tactics. Their defense would lie in speed rather than sheer brunt defensive power like tanks. I also don't think heavy tanks should be able to 1 shot infantry. I don't like 1 shot on anything except MAYBE, just MAYBE the flail.

I can't comment on empire specific buggies besides the trasher. But an idea could be to reduce the trasher gun's damage by 40% and then give the driver the same turret. You would control the driver turret with the mouse while driving with WASD. It could potentially do 120% damage compared to what it does now. But driving and aiming at the same time is a lot more difficult than a dedicated gunner. On the other hand, you aren't completely useless witout a gunner and you are more versatile against AI being able to lay down more fire around an area.

The harasser really needs some love. I think it could serve well as a more all-round vehicle. The SG primarily AA with some AI (mg). The empire specific being AI with some AV. The Harasser being decent against AA and AI with the machine gun but requiring more accurate aim. And decent against light vehicles. Perhaps add an extra 3rd seat on the rear for another gunner.

I think the suggestions in the OP go too far. Buggies cost 3 points and you get 3 cars which have distinct functions, so you have more versatility. You can use them while in Rexo. AA1+2 is 3 points but you get a 1 man strong light vehicle (lightning) and a heavy tank which is AI + AV only, you only need to slightly reduce its AI capability. Perhaps increase it's cooldown a little. Basically you spend 1.5 points per vehicle while you spend 1 point per vehicle for the buggies, you have more versatility + They allow rexo use.

Firefly · 2011-02-24, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

I'm trying to avoid having specific targets for vehicle types because of the customisable vehicle hard point system I have proposed, which would make any vehicle be able to be effective against other targets depending on what they chose to kit the vehicle out with.

No offense mate, you've done great work with that, but I don't see the point in it aside from a possible gamer-job portfolio, or wishful thinking. And to be honest, customisable load-outs on vehicles is a bad idea. As it's been mentioned in this thread... "Thats why I agreed with (ThePeacemaker? ) on the AGN podcast when someone mentioned allowing the likes of vanguards to interchange their weapon loadouts to be AI /AV/AA , and he quite rightly pointed out all that would do is make the Vanguard the only vehicle you would need." Nuff said. Sorry, again no disrespect intended.

Originally Posted by I SandRock

Removing lock-on weapons would already make buggies a lot better.

Did I miss something? Buggies now have lock-on?

Originally Posted by I SandRock

But an idea could be to reduce the trasher gun's damage by 40% and then give the driver the same turret. You would control the driver turret with the mouse while driving with WASD.

That's what the Lightning is for.

I SandRock · 2011-02-24, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

Did I miss something? Buggies now have lock-on?

Nope, that would be a nerf if they had and you removed it :P But lock-on weapons are determinetal to a buggies survival as they rely on their speed to out mananeuver attacks made against them. Lock-ons make speed useless.

That's what the Lightning is for.

Not really. Its a 1-man light tank only operable as 1 man agile suit pilot. The trasher in my suggestion would not be as powerful as a lightning at all if only used by 1 pilot.

(TRAIN at station gotta go)

DviddLeff · 2011-02-24, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

No offense mate, you've done great work with that, but I don't see the point in it aside from a possible gamer-job portfolio, or wishful thinking. And to be honest, customisable load-outs on vehicles is a bad idea. As it's been mentioned in this thread... "Thats why I agreed with (ThePeacemaker? ) on the AGN podcast when someone mentioned allowing the likes of vanguards to interchange their weapon loadouts to be AI /AV/AA , and he quite rightly pointed out all that would do is make the Vanguard the only vehicle you would need." Nuff said. Sorry, again no disrespect intended.

Its cool, I dont expect everyone to like it, but I think the system has merit.

The Van is already an AI/AV killing machine, it only lacks a decent AA role. If you gave users the chance to customise it and they went for AA weapons then it would get chewed up by infantry and vehicles alike. Aircraft would have as much difficulty with it as they currently do with the Skyguard; the Van is a big slow target compared with the Skyguards smaller frame and speed, but the different armour values make up for its lack of speed.

Ground based AA isn't much of a problem for decent pilots; they can just after burn away after they have unleashed a volley or dodge behind hills to break lock ons, they really need to be concerned about other aircraft unless they try and stick around over a combat zone.

Bags · 2011-02-24, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by I SandRock

Nope, that would be a nerf if they had and you removed it :P But lock-on weapons are determinetal to a buggies survival as they rely on their speed to out mananeuver attacks made against them. Lock-ons make speed useless.

No offense but it's just as easy to hit a buggy with a lancer as it is to hit with a striker. Buggies aren't that agile.

I already love driving buggies so I'd love even more incentive to do so.

Firefly · 2011-02-24, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Its cool, I dont expect everyone to like it, but I think the system has merit.

It's not that I don't like the entire concept that you've obviously put a lot of hard work and thought into - I do. I'm a big fan of stuff like that (player innovation and care of their game), between you and Hayoo I think had SOE pulled its head out of its arse and marketed the game, not done Core Comcrap/BFRs, and a small amount of other things, they wouldn't have had to lay off devs or shuffle them off to Evercrap. Then PS devs could have done stuff like what you guys proposed, and maybe the game would be something different than what it is today.

What I don't like is the customisable system for vehicles. You should scrap just about every vehicle except tanks and the Sunderer, and a Reaver, and put custom package options on it. Because that's about what'll be left.

DviddLeff · 2011-02-24, 11:39 AM

As it stands we hardly ever see buggies anyway, and if we go with making buggies AI focused then it will require nerfing the Van and Prowlers main gun to being as weak as the Mag against infantry which is pathetic. Then there is also severe overlap with the Deli variants which are AI machines already.