3D PS2?

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by CViolet

Any product that claims to convert a single video signal into 3D is just a gimmick. True stereoscopic 3D requires 2 evenly spaced camera angles to give the illusion of real depth. It's the reason why 90% of the movies coming out in 3D these days look like shit.

Spoken like someone who (I'm guessing) hasn't actually used a properly configured 3D setup before. And no, going to an iMAX theater doesn't count.

You don't need a stereoscopic camera to get a stereo picture. This is the Digital Age. Ever seen an autostereogram produced by Magic Eye? Those are computer generated images. No camera required. They even have animated 3D gifs.

As for games in particular.... if written correctly, every single pixel drawn in a direct3D environment has its x y and z coordinates stored in memory, so it's a fairly simple thing to calculate 2 different viewing angles of the same scene such that it mimics a stereoscopic camera, and it can give you a pretty convincing sense of depth when viewed with LCD shutter glasses.

In addition, the stereo drivers I've used in the past have had several different aspects that you could tweak to tailor it to your sense of depth and to the app you were using (stereo width, z value depth, depth of convergence, z cutoff distance both near and far, etc). It wasn't perfect in every game of course (many games don't calculate z values for UI/HUD elements or just set z=0 so they're on top of everything else, for example, so they don't get drawn correctly), but the 3D effect that it produced was quite natural and convincing.

TBH were it not for the fact that my monitor only does 60Hz I probably wouldn't play any Direct3D games in 2D.

[Mastachief]

3D...... its a gimmick i see no reason to waste good money on it

Besides personally i cannot see it.

[CrystalViolet]

Originally Posted by Erendil

Spoken like someone who (I'm guessing) hasn't actually used a properly configured 3D setup before. And no, going to an iMAX theater doesn't count.

You don't need a stereoscopic camera to get a stereo picture. This is the Digital Age. Ever seen an autostereogram produced by Magic Eye? Those are computer generated images. No camera required. They even have animated 3D gifs.

I never claimed that you couldn't create a stereo image via image manipulation. My point was that it is a faux 3D that doesn't look nearly as good as media that is natively produced in stereo. Digital technology is great, but it can't post process in information that isn't there.

As for games in particular.... if written correctly, every single pixel drawn in a direct3D environment has its x y and z coordinates stored in memory, so it's a fairly simple thing to calculate 2 different viewing angles of the same scene such that it mimics a stereoscopic camera, and it can give you a pretty convincing sense of depth when viewed with LCD shutter glasses.

Very true but we weren't talking about the images being rendered in 3D, we are talking about post processing done to a monoscopic signal.

[Zulthus]

Off topic, but Alydon, is DARK still active? I was thinking about resubbing again... I need my Planetside fix. I don't think I'll bother if no one plays anymore though.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by CViolet

I never claimed that you couldn't create a stereo image via image manipulation. My point was that it is a faux 3D that doesn't look nearly as good as media that is natively produced in stereo. Digital technology is great, but it can't post process in information that isn't there.

Ahhh, but here's the thing: With Direct3D the information is there, in the Z-buffer. If we were still shooting at 2D bitmaps like we did in Doom that'd be one thing. But ever since Quake came out most FPSes have drawn their environments in a 3D world with x, y, and z axis data for every single pixel. And that z data is what determines its depth and is what allows us to extrapolate a stereo image.

So long as the Z-buffer data is accurate, you can get a very realistic stereo image from it. Believe me, when properly implemented, stereo imaging derived from D3D z-buffer data is every bit as good as the stereoscopic satellite imagery I worked with in college. It is not a gimmick. Not by a long shot.

Originally Posted by CViolet

Very true but we weren't talking about the images being rendered in 3D, we are talking about post processing done to a monoscopic signal.

Again, games that use the D3D z-buffer (like PS1 & 2) are already being rendered in 3D, and we are already being shown a processed image of the 3D game world. It's just presented to us from the perspective of a single point within the gamespace. Yet to most people this processed image creates a fairly natural and realistic perspective of the gameworld being viewed.

In the grand scheme of things, extending that view so you see the gameworld from two points in space (stereo) instead of one is not that hard since all the necessary data is already provided by the game engine.

So long as the game Devs provide accurate z-buffer data for everything on the screen and don't make shortcuts in the data to increase framerates (like using z=0 2D fog overlays instead of volumetric fog) and/or to ensure HUD/UI elements are drawn on top of everything else, creating a realistic in-game view in stereo is quite possible.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Off topic, but Alydon, is DARK still active? I was thinking about resubbing again... I need my Planetside fix. I don't think I'll bother if no one plays anymore though.

Yes we are still around, although not in quite the numbers we were a couple months ago. A handful of the regulars are splitting their game time w/ BF3 or Skyrim so it varies a bit during the week, but there's generally at least 4-5 of us on (for example there's 7 on TS right now not including me since I'm at work ), and we can fill a squad+ on the weekends. So c'mon join in on the carnage!

[ProfessorCrow]

/that feel when blind in left eye since birth and will never experience 3D

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by ProfessorCrow

/that feel when blind in left eye since birth and will never experience 3D

Not really though... but worry not, at the rate technology is advancing, they will have made one eyed 3D by 2015. Hell, they'll be able to restore vision by then.

[ProfessorCrow]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Not really though... but worry not, at the rate technology is advancing, they will have made one eyed 3D by 2015. Hell, they'll be able to restore vision by then.

Thanks bro, that's what I'm hoping for. Robot eye or one-eye 3D, I'm fine with either.

[CrystalViolet]

Originally Posted by Erendil

Ahhh, but here's the thing: With Direct3D the information is there, in the Z-buffer. If we were still shooting at 2D bitmaps like we did in Doom that'd be one thing. But ever since Quake came out most FPSes have drawn their environments in a 3D world with x, y, and z axis data for every single pixel. And that z data is what determines its depth and is what allows us to extrapolate a stereo image.

I'm not talking about a 120hz 3D signal output from the graphics card. I think the point that you're missing is that any products that claim to convert a 2D image into 3D are processing the images after they've already been rendered into a 2D bitmap and output from the rendering hardware. They sit right before the monitor in the signal chain. Basically all they do is double the frames, and use image manipulation (resizing and shifting) on half of the frames to create what is essentially a fake 3D effect with no real depth or focal point.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by CViolet

I'm not talking about a 120hz 3D signal output from the graphics card. I think the point that you're missing is that any products that claim to convert a 2D image into 3D are processing the images after they've already been rendered into a 2D bitmap and output from the rendering hardware. They sit right before the monitor in the signal chain. Basically all they do is double the frames, and use image manipulation (resizing and shifting) on half of the frames to create what is essentially a fake 3D effect with no real depth or focal point.

*sigh*

And I think the point that you're missing is the fact that there are several different approaches to stereo imaging technology, and with the type I'm talking about (LCD shutter glasses like what Nvidia sells), the stereo drivers that you have to install integrate with your video card drivers to pull z-buffer data directly from the OpenGL or Directx interface before any rendering is done.

Instead, they tell the video card to render a stereo image on the spot (more specifically, separate frames for the left and right eyes). No monoscopic image is ever rendered, and the rendered stereo signal gets sent by the video card to your monitor without getting modified at all by the VGA passthrough dongle.

The only thing that the VGA passthrough does with these glasses is sync the alternating shutter rate of the LCD glasses themselves to the refresh rate of your monitor so that each lens gets blacked in out sync with the corresponding image (left or right) that is being displayed by your monitor. That's it. All of the stereo rendering is done in software.

If you owned a pair you could prove this yourself by disconnecting the VGA passthrough while playing a game being rendered in stereo. If you did this, you would see that the signal getting sent to your monitor doesn't change at all and still contains alternating left/right frames, even though the stereo hardware is disconnected, powered off, smashed with a hammer, melted down, or whatever.

With this type of setup the stereo image displayed is IMO not at all fake, has incredible depth (which incidentally is adjustable by the user), and has a very distinct (and again, asjustable) focal point.

[EVILoHOMER]

I bought a 120hrz monitor and the Nvidia vision kit but I never use it, 3D hurts my eyes after 10 mins and I just turn it off. Even watching the Nintendo 3DS makes me feel sick looking at it, I just cannot see 3D taking off.

[Erendil]

Yeah eyestrain can be an issue for some ppl w/ shutter glasses. It never really bothered me unless I was already fighting a headache but I knew of ppl who would have to take them off for a few mins every so often.

I wish the 120Hz monitors that are out now actually did 140Hz instead. I found that to be easier on the eyes when using my glasses (i-Art Eye3D 4-in-1).

[Talek Krell]

WOW! It's just like being shot in the face in real life!

[Ailos]

My biggest issue with most current 3D setups is in fact, the blinking. If the refresh rate is below 80 Hz I can actually see the rastering lines on the screen, and if its below 60 Hz (like it is on some really old motinors in my lab) I can see the actual rastering pixel move down each line. LCD monitors do make my eyes feel more comfortable because the rest of it doesn't actually turn off during the rastering, so for the standard refresh rate of 60 Hz, although I can cath the rater on fast moving frames it doesn't strain me. The new 120 Hz monitors though, were made for me.

I actually have an Acer 1080 p 3D projector and the glasses kit for it. It does that usual 60Hz per eye trick in 3D mode, and it literally makes my eyes bleed after half an hour. In normal 2D 120 Hz mode, it takes at least four hours before my eyes begin to feel uncomfortable. More to the point, even at 60 Hz in normal 2D mode, I can handle it for a good while. Its the glasses constant blinking in front of my eyes that is most bothersome. And for that reason alone, it actually seems fair price for me to pay $800 for those stereoscopic eye screens. I mean the projector cost $1500 when I bought it, so what the hell.

Of course, them being cheaper wouldn't hurt, but the 1080 resolution would be nice, too.

[Erendil]

Damnit...! All this talk of gaming in stereo and upon seeing the new game footage tonight now I really want to game in stereo again. PS2 will look f'ing fantastic in stereo..

Looks like I'll be upgrading my monitor to a 120Hz one soon....