A video that can help the PS2 developers on getting the feel of the guns right! - Page 2

Coreldan · 2012-03-14, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Shanesan

Screen jitter and appropriate UI feedback definitely should be done on TRays side first. This video was from an absolute boss Art designer from Realtime Worlds before APB went belly up. Understand the differences from before and after and get a feel what a camera can actually do to gameplay.

APB Improvement Proposal Concepts Part 1 (before and after) - YouTube

And

APB Improvement Proposal Concepts Part 2 (before and after) - YouTube

A smart camera really makes the game. You seeing this, TRay?

As a long time APB veteran I would hate if most of that made it into the game, frankly. They look good when seen once on a video or so, but much like editing videos, using too much fancy effects starts looking bad. I really doubt I would enjoy playing APB if it was like that. Then again, APB is a third person shooter, which already makes the weapons sorta feel like lack of feedback, cos it obviously feels like you are not really shooting them due to the camera view.

That said, I do agree with many other things mentioned here. Outside ironsights, small screen shake is OK, but not that much in ADS. I also think BF3 does this all fairly well. As mentioned, really good sounds and just overall feels good. Screenshake while ADS isn't that good of an idea and its good to notice CS doesnt even have ADS, while it will be the primary way of firing in PS2, so direct comparison isn't good.

Insurgency is one of my favourite online shooters up to date, I think the game feels good in many aspects. I'll make a short video about the game weapons soon.

One thing we have to remember though that the AK47 is one of the beefiest sounding assault rifles in real life too, all weapons cant sound the same and like AK47

Canaris · 2012-03-14, 08:46 AM

see the shootout scene from HEAT, that's how I like my gun noises, something with some balls.

LZachariah · 2012-03-14, 09:05 AM

I think this guy that the OP introduced to us has some great stuff he's sharing. I mean, I didn't have any major issues with the gunfighting mechanics for the demo (and also, it's in alpha). However, I've studied cognitive psychology for 8 years now, and I definitely believe that background-details like the kinetic-feedback from a gun, or the wind blowing dust in the air, those will pull us in with immersion, EVEN IF WE DON'T NOTICE THAT IT'S HAPPENING. So I think it would be great for the Devs to check this out.

Planetside 2 will be amazing, either way.

~Zachariah

MrBloodworth · 2012-03-14, 09:28 AM

Yes, because we totally need this:

http://youtu.be/8xNe7LuQ4OI

Coreldan · 2012-03-14, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

Yes, because we totally need this:

http://youtu.be/8xNe7LuQ4OI

What does this have to do with the topic?

Anyways, heres the video I promised about Insurgency, a mod for HL2. I've always liked the feel of weapons there:

Woops, video edit fail, I was supposed to end the video to approximately 4:30, which is why the last clip is just me running around doing just about nothing lol.

MrBloodworth · 2012-03-14, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

What does this have to do with the topic?

Everything. The guns are hit-scan, and to create movement prediction, hit boxes precede the player model. This is why bunny hopping is so effective in counterstrike games.

You do the math.

As for the feel of the guns, i have no issues with the GDC video, with exception of the TTK.

Coreldan · 2012-03-14, 09:49 AM

You have a point, but this thread per se has nothing to do with hitscans, hitboxes or hit registration anyways, only how the weapons feel when fired.

And yea, I dont have much problems with the GDC footage either except we couldnt hear the true sounds cos it was recorded with a camera. Sounds alone can make or break the feeling as we've learned, so can't really comment on how the weapons truely feel in PS2 before we get real footage with proper sound. That said, they also said many of the sounds are still placeholders and the weapon feel is still at its early stages.

Kipper · 2012-03-14, 10:01 AM

I think I preferred the "first" gun demo from the OP video, but honestly not sure whether that was just because it sounded as though it had more awesome than the second weapon.

A little bit of screen shake - enough that you don't consciously notice it, but it's there and it disrupts your aim is all good in my opinion for a couple of reasons.

First reason being that I would want to see heavier weapons produce far more recoil and be harder to track a target with as they probably would be - Infantry held missile/rocket launchers should have some severe kick to them.

Additionally, looking down the sights, firing single shot / burst, and going to kneeling/prone should all reduce the recoil and make aiming easier at the cost of mobility and all-round vision. There should be a place for hit and hope, as well as a place for controlled, aimed shots to cater for situations and individual style.

Also - VS use recoil-less energy weapons I believe, so there has to be something that makes them feel different to the concussive weapons of the other empires.

Bags · 2012-03-14, 10:03 AM

Not a big fan of screen shake myself.

Kipper · 2012-03-14, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bags

Not a big fan of screen shake myself.

By which I meant "whichever effects" game devs use to produce realism, maybe screen shake is the wrong way to show recoil, but recoil needs to be shown, so that it can be tuned to individual weapons and give them all a sufficiently different feel.

I do know from personal experience that if you're firing a weapon on a range and you're holding it right, aiming, controlling your breathing etc, that you can really minimize (but not eliminate) recoil and be ready to take another shot that's well grouped with the first. I've never actually fired a gun "improperly" on account of that being rather dangerous, but I could imagine that the kick would make it somewhat un-aimable beyond the general direction of what you're trying to hit.

Pozidriv · 2012-03-14, 11:34 AM

Like a few before me have said, BF3 did it quite well. Just to add something to this thread, this is the type of gun movement screen shake i think would fit into PS2. This video shows different amounts of movement and shake between different weapon classes.

Edit: The best part starts at 1:36

Vancha · 2012-03-14, 12:24 PM

Even when you get to sounds, you need to separate the sound from the sound effect. For example, in the CoD vs BF3 video, while BF3 had the best sound effects every time, I actually preferred the basic sound of some of the CoD guns, when they lower or had more oomph to them.

As for screen shake, that seems like something to put in the options menu, possibly as a slider even. BF3-shake would be around the middle, while CS-shake would be near the maximum.

Originally Posted by Coreldan

One thing we have to remember though that the AK47 is one of the beefiest sounding assault rifles in real life too, all weapons cant sound the same and like AK47

It's a good thing the weapons in Planetside are fictional then. No reason to make any of them sound unsatisfactorily powerless.

Coreldan · 2012-03-14, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Vancha

It's a good thing the weapons in Planetside are fictional then. No reason to make any of them sound unsatisfactorily powerless.

Exactly. Although I have to say that making scifi guns sound meaty might be harder than in your usual run of the mill modern warfare-kinda game. Most of us are used to and can easily recognize a gunshot. While many probably have never heard a real gun going off, but people still have an idea what sounds good in terms of that.

Just trying to say that I guess it's a lot harder to make scifi weapon sounds that actually sound beefy and good to the majority. I guess

roguy · 2012-03-14, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pozidriv

Like a few before me have said, BF3 did it quite well. Just to add something to this thread, this is the type of gun movement screen shake i think would fit into PS2. This video shows different amounts of movement and shake between different weapon classes.

Edit: The best part starts at 1:36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLnPHA7bZpE

That's Battlefield: Bad company 2, not Battlefield 3.

I won't comment on the CS:GO's lack of screenshake, when i find how the tracer bullets fly ABOVE the crosshair/where you're aiming far more distracting.

Either make the crosshair accurately represent the bullet spread (eg: rainbow 6, bf3, what we've seen of PS2 so far), have the recoil "lift" the gun (DOD, Red Orchestra) or just don't bother adding tracers in the first place (CS 1.6, CS:S).

Coreldan · 2012-03-14, 01:18 PM

I think this might be a really useful thread for the devs. We are giving good concrete examples with videos on what we feel works and what doesn't work. It should be fairly easy for them to catch the drift on what makes the shooting feel good if they compare a video of another game and then PS2 with each other.

It's funny btw. Usually when we bring up BF3 in these discussion, it's usually to point out what we don't want

This thread has mostly been about how we want the gun feeling from BF3. And they really did nail that, sadly it is one of the few things going for it lol.