Air Born Dog Fights in PS2

[Synapse]

How air combat rolls out depends entirely on guided missiles, their abilities and their proliferation.

I'm already very excited about this as well.

Probably things will be super simple though, most players won't be dedicated pilots.

[SztEltviz]

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS

[Bobby Shaftoe]

Originally Posted by SztEltviz

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS

Heroes of the 357th!

[ccrumley]

Also keep in mind that each faction specific aircraft will have their own inherent attributes. If you skip ahead to about 51:40 in the live streaming video with Higby and TB, Matt talks about how each will handle differently. The Reaver I believe will be heavier armored and Im hoping will dive faster because of that. The mosquito will accelerate faster and the Scythe will be WAY more maneuverable considering it can move in all 3 axis of direction in an equal manner. Ive been playing combat flight sims for over a decade and the ones I have spent the most time with by far are WW2 sims. You have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your plane and your opponents to be successful, in WW2 sims especially, because every aircraft handles differently. If Im in a P-47, which is a heavy airplane that can take alot of punishment, Im not going to try to outturn a Bf-109. Im going to get an altittude advantage, dive down on him, fire at him without making any sudden quick maneuvers, and then climb back up. Now granted this flight model wont be anywhere near as detailed, Im hoping that at least part of these kinds of physics will be represented in the game. Learn how to properly use your aircraft against specific opponents and you will become an ace.

[kaffis]

People aren't used to seeing good dogfights in multiplayer air combat games for three reasons:

1) They're playing with aircraft that are too powerful -- a lot of the dynamics of the classic dogfight and furball are dictated by managing altitude and stalling characteristics, which is kind of lost when you're in an F-15 that has enough thrust to outright overcome gravity and accelerate directly upwards indefinitely.

2) People are shitty pilots.

3) Teamwork isn't used between wingmen. A lot of dogfighting maneuvers was not about shaking the pilot on your tail, but rather about forcing him to choose between being lead into your wingman's sights or breaking off pursuit himself.


As such, games that yield really good dogfights tend to be very niche games.. primarily because of 1 and 2. WWII and especially WWI planes just aren't flashy to the video gaming target audience, and the hard-core simmers have primarily died out.

Everybody else expects their modern jet combat games to be Top Gun exciting -- which is a credit to the Navy recruitment minds behind Top Gun, I suppose, but just isn't really feasible given the speeds and reaction times involved to make those kind of exciting cannon fights in modern planes.

[kaffis]

Originally Posted by SztEltviz

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS

I preferred Knights of the Sky.

[Kilmoran]

I'll be honest. Since missles and lock on tech has become part of piloting, dog fights just aren't the same. What you are describing, OP, hasn't really happened since about world war II in any significant amount of battles. Most of the time, a real modern air to air scenario ends miles from contact. Dog fights is about bullets glancing and trying to get a good bead, and possibly trying to affect certain systems. It's about a damaged wing and knowing your planes limits with trying to learn or abuse the limits of the enemies. It's a lot more personal... but it also takes a lot longer.

What you ask for, just because of TTK, may not really occur.

[Kilmoran]

Originally Posted by kaffis

People aren't used to seeing good dogfights in multiplayer air combat games for three reasons:

1) They're playing with aircraft that are too powerful -- a lot of the dynamics of the classic dogfight and furball are dictated by managing altitude and stalling characteristics, which is kind of lost when you're in an F-15 that has enough thrust to outright overcome gravity and accelerate directly upwards indefinitely.

2) People are shitty pilots.

3) Teamwork isn't used between wingmen. A lot of dogfighting maneuvers was not about shaking the pilot on your tail, but rather about forcing him to choose between being lead into your wingman's sights or breaking off pursuit himself.


As such, games that yield really good dogfights tend to be very niche games.. primarily because of 1 and 2. WWII and especially WWI planes just aren't flashy to the video gaming target audience, and the hard-core simmers have primarily died out.

Everybody else expects their modern jet combat games to be Top Gun exciting -- which is a credit to the Navy recruitment minds behind Top Gun, I suppose, but just isn't really feasible given the speeds and reaction times involved to make those kind of exciting cannon fights in modern planes.

Having played an "MMO" ....Combat Flight Game... (Air Warrior series) I agree whole heartedly.

[kadrin]

Originally Posted by SztEltviz

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS

Originally Posted by kaffis

I preferred Knights of the Sky.

My fellow old school pilots.

I played the crap out of Aces of the Pacific, Aces over Europe and Red Baron.

[Cosmical]

Originally Posted by kaffis

A lot of dogfighting maneuvers was not about shaking the pilot on your tail, but rather about forcing him to choose between being lead into your wingman's sights or breaking off pursuit himself.

Best reply so far. Need more decent insight and ideas, not nay saying.

I still think that air combat is lame. Yes flying through canyons to evade persuers only to have them hit the walls because youre more familiar with the terrain, and because youre a better pilot is fun and compelling.

But air combat will still consist of...

MISSILE LOCK
WIGGLE ABOUT TRYING TO AVOID MISSILE LOCK
FIRE FLARES

- REPEAT

teamplay and huge numbers of aircraft will change the face of things ofcourse. And if youre telling me that customisation will go as far as to let you have a light weight nimble aircraft with low armour, that allows you to turn on a dime and throttle away, maybe sacrificing a secondary weapon like missiles. That will be a huge step to me beleiving that air combat will be unique and amazing, with players really being able to shine in their stunt planes.

I still think there could be mechanics to improve it. About all planetside 1 thought of was the Wasp and shields over 7 years.

Even something as simple as being able to convert afterburn into shields for a few seconds would be amazing. Allowing you to pop it on a bombing run to absorb a hit, or sacrificing your escape plan to survive an incoming missile.

[Xeb]

I doubt we'll see much more classic "BF1942" dogfighting in PS2 as we did in PS1... the simple fact is that aircraft in planetside are more like helicopters, you can do all the loops and rolls as you like but all the other guy needs to do is slow down and focus on shooting you while your not shooting him.

[Sledgecrushr]

I really hope there is a sidegrade that reduces or even totally gets rid of the heat signature of your fighter. I want some proper dogfights, not just a lock on and then a auto kill.

[Unforgiven]

i think if you want better dogfights, sadly everyone else is gonna have to become better pilots, AND USE A WINGMAN! the military determined that teh effectiveness of a fighter jet increases by about 80% with the proper use of a wingman. (which means he must also know how to fly)

[kaffis]

Originally Posted by Xeb

I doubt we'll see much more classic "BF1942" dogfighting in PS2 as we did in PS1... the simple fact is that aircraft in planetside are more like helicopters, you can do all the loops and rolls as you like but all the other guy needs to do is slow down and focus on shooting you while your not shooting him.

This is why the air game in PS2 doesn't seem likely to grab me. It had a chance when they were talking about how they're using much better physics models, but...

From what we've seen, the stall speed seems too low for me to really get interested. If there even *is* a stall speed. Either way, it gives the impression of that helicopter performance you speak of, which doesn't really equate to compelling air combat for me.

Others are welcome to enjoy it, and I have no doubt that having the skies open as a vector of attack will be good for the game overall, but it's not going to be for me.

Unless maybe I can bring myself to fly a Liberator again. We'll see what the weapon profiles available are like; if they can support a low altitude, moderate speed engagement vector well, I may go in for some of that.

[Warborn]

Originally Posted by RedKnights

I think the new flight mechanics are going to make 'turreting' a quite bad idea, I don't see that becoming a problem again.

Things die so quickly and fighters are so fast that it might be the case that it will be a bad idea. I don't think fighters will be able to tank numerous rocket hits like reavers could in Planetside 1. However, that doesn't mean there'll be dogfighting. Look at the very first video TB did. He was in a skeeter, flying around, and took some hits from behind. So, he came to a dead stop, turned around, and shot down the scythe that was shooting him from the rear.

Fact is, helicopters don't dog fight. Planetside aircraft are all helicopters. They're very fast helicopters, but when you have the ability to come to a dead stop and rotate in the air, then dogfighting goes out the window. Air combat will probably be essentially unchanged from PS2. As nice as it'd be for the aircraft to behave like jets with maybe a toggle-able, slow helicopter mode, that doesn't seem like what they have in mind, so instead you'll get Battlefield-style helicopter duels.