Gameplay: Spotting done the right way

[Rexdezi]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Guys, guys wait and think a bit...!!! For christ's sake! even though it's "cool" it actually reverts to blind-spotting exploit problem so actually big no! that shadow/ghost idea is as bad as 3d spotting. the whole point is not to "mark" the spotted guy with anything for everyone on the main 1st person screen. Good snipers could just spot a guy through bushes or in the night and fire at his "ghost" immediately...so we have the same crap all over again. Also it a lot of work, devs would have to implement a whole new system... putting stream camera to the corner of your screen is way easier.

Yes main problem with pop-up comm link would be getting used to it, and player would have to look away from the center of the screen to get the info, but I believe this would be the best solution we heard of so far.

Ratstomper's idea with reticules is good. However I don't like the screenshot part since it would be tricky to always get a good screenshot in first try and provide the necessary intel. thus it could get spammy (guy misses, makes bad screenshot, gives no useful info and has to to another one again), com-link camera (live stream) is superior to static screenshot in every way, and is as easy to implement.

I will revise this part to include that idea:

HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE? When spotter gets in the position and presses "spot button" his view turns to camera mode something like motion sensor which marks the targets near the center of spotter's field of sight with reticules (target would have to be at least 3-4 seconds in the center of his screen to get marked). In this mode spotter cannot shoot or move, he can only tilt his view up-down and left-right so he can follow the target to some extent if it moves off screen. After that if spotter locates some targets or even before he can choose to press the "transmit button" when he wishes to stream this piece of video intel directly to his team(squad).

IMPROVEMENTS we got with this correction are: 1. camera mode looks like looking through binoculars so the weapon of the spotter is removed as a obtrusion in the screen. 2. reticules will help others spot the enemy spotter is try to show them more easily so they won't have to look hard to find him in their "spot cam" pop-up window. 3. this kind of camera will actually be of some assistance to the infiltrators too (a help tool of a sort) since they will be able to use it to find targets more quickly when sniping (especially at night), but they won't get easy aim feature since they will have to change to the "normal mode" before actually firing at the target and reticule at it will then disappear.

p.s. stream spot cam could perhaps appear over the minimap temporarily to save the screen space.

Maybe give the infiltrator a new item; binoculars. If they want to do a spot of spotting (yeah bad pun was intended) then they'd have to switch to the 'nocs to stream. And if this was implemented, they'd HAVE to put a system for the rest of the squad to disable the feed for themselves

[Dagron]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Guys, guys wait and think a bit...!!! For christ's sake! even though it's "cool" it actually reverts to blind-spotting exploit problem so actually big no! that shadow/ghost idea is as bad as 3d spotting.

Mmm, yeah i kinda lost sight of the situation.

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Ratstomper's idea with reticules is good. However I don't like the screenshot part since it would be tricky to always get a good screenshot in first try and provide the necessary intel. thus it could get spammy (guy misses, makes bad screenshot, gives no useful info and has to to another one again), com-link camera (live stream) is superior to static screenshot in every way, and is as easy to implement.

I will revise this part to include that idea:

HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE? When spotter gets in the position and presses "spot button" his view turns to camera mode something like motion sensor which marks the targets near the center of spotter's field of sight with reticules (target would have to be at least 3-4 seconds in the center of his screen to get marked). In this mode spotter cannot shoot or move, he can only tilt his view up-down and left-right so he can follow the target to some extent if it moves off screen. After that if spotter locates some targets or even before he can choose to press the "transmit button" when he wishes to stream this piece of video intel directly to his team(squad).

IMPROVEMENTS we got with this correction are: 1. camera mode looks like looking through binoculars so the weapon of the spotter is removed as a obtrusion in the screen. 2. reticules will help others spot the enemy spotter is try to show them more easily so they won't have to look hard to find him in their "spot cam" pop-up window. 3. this kind of camera will actually be of some assistance to the infiltrators too (a help tool of a sort) since they will be able to use it to find targets more quickly when sniping (especially at night), but they won't get easy aim feature since they will have to change to the "normal mode" before actually firing at the target and reticule at it will then disappear.

p.s. stream spot cam could perhaps appear over the minimap temporarily to save the screen space.

I like your idea of showing it over the minimap, but even then pop-ups can be annoying. Maybe make it so a spot transmition icon blinks in a corner of the minimap and squad members could press a key to toggle the spot-cam?

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Dagron

Maybe make it so a spot transmition icon blinks in a corner of the minimap and squad members could press a key to toggle the spot-cam?

I agree, that would prevent spam and annoying pop-ups from bothering you yet would keep this tool very functional. In combination with VOIP input spotter could be very useful.

Imagine the situation... you are defending a control point in a room and your buddy spotter yells to you "hostiles incoming" and puts a stream of them running to the door - you would now the exact time when to fling a grenade at them. I believe there are many other situations in which this system would prove itself to be a good/useful addition to the game.

Let's just hope now that devs actually see these suggestions and decide if they could help them make a better spotting system free of exploits.

Originally Posted by Rexdezi

Maybe give the infiltrator a new item; binoculars. If they want to do a spot of spotting (yeah bad pun was intended) then they'd have to switch to the 'nocs to stream. And if this was implemented, they'd HAVE to put a system for the rest of the squad to disable the feed for themselves

Yeah that's the same thing it doesn't matter if you call if binoculars or spot camera like I did if it does exactly the same job. My presumption was that every class would get binoculars that's why I wanted to call it differently.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Guys, guys wait and think a bit...!!! For christ's sake! even though it's "cool" it actually reverts to blind-spotting exploit problem so actually big no! that shadow/ghost idea is as bad as 3d spotting. the whole point is not to "mark" the spotted guy with anything for everyone on the main 1st person screen. Good snipers could just spot a guy through bushes or in the night and fire at his "ghost" immediately...so we have the same crap all over again. Also it a lot of work, devs would have to implement a whole new system... putting stream camera to the corner of your screen is way easier.

Yes main problem with pop-up comm link would be getting used to it, and player would have to look away from the center of the screen to get the info, but I believe this would be the best solution we heard of so far.

Ratstomper's idea with reticules is good. However I don't like the screenshot part since it would be tricky to always get a good screenshot in first try and provide the necessary intel. thus it could get spammy (guy misses, makes bad screenshot, gives no useful info and has to to another one again), com-link camera (live stream) is superior to static screenshot in every way, and is as easy to implement.

I will revise this part to include that idea:

HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE? When spotter gets in the position and presses "spot button" his view turns to camera mode something like motion sensor which marks the targets near the center of spotter's field of sight with reticules (target would have to be at least 3-4 seconds in the center of his screen to get marked). In this mode spotter cannot shoot or move, he can only tilt his view up-down and left-right so he can follow the target to some extent if it moves off screen. After that if spotter locates some targets or even before he can choose to press the "transmit button" when he wishes to stream this piece of video intel directly to his team(squad).

IMPROVEMENTS we got with this correction are: 1. camera mode looks like looking through binoculars so the weapon of the spotter is removed as a obtrusion in the screen. 2. reticules will help others spot the enemy spotter is try to show them more easily so they won't have to look hard to find him in their "spot cam" pop-up window. 3. this kind of camera will actually be of some assistance to the infiltrators too (a help tool of a sort) since they will be able to use it to find targets more quickly when sniping (especially at night), but they won't get easy aim feature since they will have to change to the "normal mode" before actually firing at the target and reticule at it will then disappear.

p.s. stream spot cam could perhaps appear over the minimap temporarily to save the screen space.

I like the idea, but won't this make it so infiltrators are just cameras? You can't really do anything while you're broadcasting a feed. So, would I just sit and have a camera on a fight to provide intel, or am I actually going to do some shooting? My other issue with the miniscreen is that it's so small. If it's taken from any real distance, it will likely be too small to really see anything.

Bear in mind, it's something that has to remain fairly simple, useful and fun if people are even going to bother using it.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I like the idea, but won't this make it so infiltrators are just cameras? You can't really do anything while you're broadcasting a feed.

That's the point of it, so you can't exploit it for "shooting tacos" (or reticules) that will appear in that mode on your screen. LA should also be able to do it. Anyway you wouldn't be streaming for a minute, brief 5-10 secs streams should serve the purpose after what you resume your other activities. If you don't like supporting then it wouldn't be fun to you but then just don't use it.

It is simple, and it believe it would be useful thus fun since you'll be helping your team and making a difference on the battlefield.

As for the size it should be made so big that it is useful yet not taking to much of the screen. I believe the something around windows size shown in OP mock up should do.

[Baneblade]

You should have to designate your spotter and only have one at a time.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

You should have to designate your spotter and only have one at a time.

That's the matter of organization within squad (if there is any), just say Sobekeus you spot this time for us. As for auto-squaders current system should work fine. It's to be tested of course but I think it should be fine.

[Baneblade]

Well, yes. But I don't want to deal with a rogue spotter in the squad when it is a simple matter of designating your personal and/or squad spotter directly.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Well, yes. But I don't want to deal with a rogue spotter in the squad when it is a simple matter of designating your personal and/or squad spotter directly.

We suggested that you'll have an ability not to accept his feeds also I believe your squad leader will be able to kick unwanted members out (those who spam) and could disable accepting new guys via auto-squad.

Having to designate one in advance would completely hinder the use of spotting for auto-squaders. Also I don't see why would you want the other guys in your squad of appropriate class prevented from doing spotting if they happen to come across something worth reporting?

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

That's the point of it, so you can't exploit it for "shooting tacos" (or reticules) that will appear in that mode on your screen. LA should also be able to do it. Anyway you wouldn't be streaming for a minute, brief 5-10 secs streams should serve the purpose after what you resume your other activities. If you don't like supporting then it wouldn't be fun to you but then just don't use it.

It is simple, and it believe it would be useful thus fun since you'll be helping your team and making a difference on the battlefield.

As for the size it should be made so big that it is useful yet not taking to much of the screen. I believe the something around windows size shown in OP mock up should do.

But it wouldn't be fun, it would be incredibly boring. There's no reason to exchange the infiltrators active combat for a passive "camera mode". That's why I mentioned the snapshot still picture idea, it lets an infiltrator give some intel on a location and still be useful in the fight without letting people exploit like they could in a video. As it stand right now, infiltrators don't seem to do very much as compared to the other classes and they need some more synergy with squads, imo.

I think the screen is too small, especially if someone has lower resolution. People won't be able to see anything except a tiny picture with some stuff moving around on it.

So, I still think a quick pic that shows what enemies are in an area and their immediate surroundings would be the best way to go. It's quick, would be easier to implement than a video feed and doesn't make the infiltrator have to be in camera mode for part of a fight.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

But it wouldn't be fun, it would be incredibly boring.

Ok, but tbh that's just your personal take. We could as easily say that playing medic and healing others is boring so let's ditch that class and give every-one auto-heal injectors... it's a matter of personal preference. You enjoy shooting all the time I can see since it's boring no to do it even for 10 seconds, there will be other who'll enjoy supporting as well... just don't do something you don't find fun... arrange it with another guy in your squad to do the spotting... Anyway VOIP will suffice, however if they do spotting I would like to see something along this line rather then 3d spotting.

A lot of Infs will do more even more boring things like hiding still in the shadows anyway for some of the time waiting for the stronger groups of enemies to go away, why not use this time to do something useful?

edit: i don't see how screenshot instead of feed solves any of the problem like possible low visibility/recognition you mentioned, actually they would make them worse imo. Also it wouldn't be easier to implement... direct live streaming to outside devices will already be available ingame, devs mentioned that a couple of times. So it's a piece of cake redirecting the stream to other players HUD instead of to Twitch TV i.e.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

We suggested that you'll have an ability not to accept his feeds also I believe your squad leader will be able to kick unwanted members out (those who spam) and could disable accepting new guys via auto-squad.

Having to designate one in advance would completely hinder the use of spotting for auto-squaders. Also I don't see why would you want the other guys in your squad of appropriate class prevented from doing spotting if they happen to come across something worth reporting?

Well since the vast majority of reports are easier and quicker to do verbally, I'm not too worried about it. I see this spotting mechanic as more of a tool to point out specific locations for air strikes and such.

Showing a picture of something, by itself, isn't as terribly useful as it seems.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Showing a picture of something, by itself, isn't as terribly useful as it seems.

Yup, I said VOIP could be just fine for most situations but since they've said they'll do spotting I'd like to see something more similar to this.. but that's just my opinion.

Although sometimes quick visual could be much more informative... saying 5 MAXes and 3 HAs, backed-up by medic and engy are coming your way is pretty clumsy, it will usually sound like this over VOIP: "bunch of hostiles coming your way"...

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Ok, but tbh that's just your personal take. We could as easily say that playing medic and healing others is boring so let's ditch that class and give every-one auto-heal injectors... it's a matter of personal preference. You enjoy shooting all the time I can see since it's boring no to do it even for 10 seconds, there will be other who'll enjoy supporting as well... just don't do something you don't find fun... arrange it with another guy in your squad to do the spotting... Anyway VOIP will suffice, however if they do spotting I would like to see something along this line rather then 3d spotting.

You're right. That IS my personal take. I'm willing to bet its the same take as a lot of other people as well. The healing analogy doesn't work, because you're actively interacting with your team. 10 seconds is a long time in terms of a firefight. A fight can start and end within 10 seconds and the infiltrator did nothing except act as cameraman.

My idea was something a squad leader could pull up to look at after his squad has secured a point to see what may be at a next objective, then order his squad accordingly. Having a little tiny video screen in the corner of your hud wouldn't show anything and would only serve as a distraction.

I think that it may be a moot point anyway. I'm not even sure there's room/reason for a spotting system in the game, tbh.

[Lanka]

Out of curiosity, what would you think about vehicles having sidegrade for spotting?

I know Liberator's supposed to be scary CAS/Gunship, but I'm curious if it could have sidegrade for gunner to zoom in&spot. Like 3 person spyplane in the high sky.

With the suggested streamed spotting it'd give squad (or even bigger linked group) aerial view of the area which could be very nice for planning&attacking. Even nice for coordinating attacks for other Liberators/groundattack planes/armors.