Should Heavy Assault Drive?

[Littleman]

We're over reacting based on what little we saw and then speculate with little to no knowledge from previous info sources, as per usual. Pretty sure SOE isn't considering any of this as valid feed back, they really shouldn't.

Tank armor is directional. Note how little damage the prowler did to Higby's vanguard striking it from the front: very little, barely a 1/10th if that. When the prowler flanked him and hit him from the rear, he took some significant damage however.

I'm willing to bet when he hopped out of his lightning to engage the Mag-Rider (which he lost against by the way) it shrugged off his rockets in a similar fashion the front his vanguard did prowler shells.

I think unless the victorious tank is sitting at a sliver of life, as long as the bulk of it's armor is facing the bailer, said bailer is just waiting to be smeared across the ground. Lighter craft might be a different story, but unless there's an ejection seat, that's probably a dead HA guy, while the other guy might be an LA that can safely bail or an engi whom can easily retreat and repair his craft.

Also note: there ARE certs that influence how much time is spent entering, exiting, and switching seats. In this build (which is NOT the latest build,) those probably weren't implemented. So when one guy is clearly losing the fight, now he has to choose when he wants to bail. Make use of an extra shot, or get out way ahead of the soon-to-be fireball.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

This is PS1 bias that people are carrying over to PS2.

I think this is the motivation for many posters in this thread.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by Littleman

We're over reacting based on what little we saw and then speculate with little to no knowledge from previous info sources, as per usual. Pretty sure SOE isn't considering any of this as valid feed back, they really shouldn't.

Tank armor is directional. Note how little damage the prowler did to Higby's vanguard striking it from the front: very little, barely a 1/10th if that. When the prowler flanked him and hit him from the rear, he took some significant damage however.

I'm willing to bet when he hopped out of his lightning to engage the Mag-Rider (which he lost against by the way) it shrugged off his rockets in a similar fashion the front his vanguard did prowler shells.

I think unless the victorious tank is sitting at a sliver of life, as long as the bulk of it's armor is facing the bailer, said bailer is just waiting to be smeared across the ground. Lighter craft might be a different story, but unless there's an ejection seat, that's probably a dead HA guy, while the other guy might be an LA that can safely bail or an engi whom can easily retreat and repair his craft.

Also note: there ARE certs that influence how much time is spent entering, exiting, and switching seats. In this build (which is NOT the latest build,) those probably weren't implemented. So when one guy is clearly losing the fight, now he has to choose when he wants to bail. Make use of an extra shot, or get out way ahead of the soon-to-be fireball.

For the most part, I agree with you. But given that the HA shield is specifically designed to allow the soldier to survive a tank round while he unloads AV, I think that he may be able to get enough rounds off that it really could make a difference. He won't end up a smear on the ground specifically because of the ability, even if Higby didn't employ it on the stream.

A battle between vehicles should be dependent upon the skill of the drivers and gunners (I noticed the greatly increased damage taken from the rear shot by the Prowler as well), not upon whether whom is able to bail, pop a shield, and finish off the other in a close fight.

[Reefpirate]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

For the most part, I agree with you. But given that the HA shield is specifically designed to allow the soldier to survive a tank round while he unloads AV, I think that he may be able to get enough rounds off that it really could make a difference. He won't end up a smear on the ground specifically because of the ability, even if Higby didn't employ it on the stream.

A battle between vehicles should be dependent upon the skill of the drivers and gunners (I noticed the greatly increased damage taken from the rear shot by the Prowler as well), not upon whether whom is able to bail, pop a shield, and finish off the other in a close fight.

I'm pretty sure Higby popped the shield on in the video... He got the glowy blue effect around his arms. No?

[QuantumMechanic]

Originally Posted by Xyntech

MAXes are specifically balanced around being unwieldy, but HA is balanced more normally like every other class. HA will be balanced so that it has many pluses and minuses compared to LA, Engis, etc, rendering them all roughly equal. This won't be a clear upgrade from PJ's to agile to rexo like in the first game.

I hope that all of the classes are roughly equal in terms of perks and class abilities. But I sure hope they are not roughly equal in terms of survivability on the battlefield.

I think there's a big difference between a Heavy Assault guy jumping out of his Vanguard with his heavy armor, shield ability and AV rocket launcher versus an Engineer jumping out of his Vanguard with his flak armor, repair tool and SMG/carbine/turret.

[Sledgecrushr]

All they have to do is add a one second delay bailing out of a vehicle and jumping into a vehicle. With that I would say yes to HA being able to drive vehicles.

[PhoenixDog]

Originally Posted by Littleman

We're over reacting based on what little we saw and then speculate with little to no knowledge from previous info sources, as per usual. Pretty sure SOE isn't considering any of this as valid feed back, they really shouldn't.

Whether this issue has already been covered in the latest build or not...We don't know. And that's why we talk. Because we don't know. And whether SoE considers anything said here or not, we can still discuss potentials. That's part of the fun in it, no? Imagining the possibilities of such exploits and thus coming up with solutions to fix said exploits.

It's a forum discussion. Let's discuss.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by PhoenixDog

I'm normally on the side of "wait until beta" too...But one thing that doesn't carry over from PS1 to PS2 is TTK. An extra rocket fired from the driver could potentially make a huge difference in a tank fight.

I would be more worried if we had ever seen any footage from PS2 where a HA with an AV gun took out a vehicle who was actively trying to kill the HA. It just hasn't happened.

If it remains this difficult for a single HA to stand out in the open with no cover and try to kill enemy vehicles, then there is simply no problem. It doesn't matter if both tanks are pretty near death and one hops out and successfully kills the other vehicle once in a blue moon. He probably would have been just as able to stay in his vehicle and use that to kill the enemy in 99% of the situations anyways.

This is entirely an issue about how quickly you can exit vehicles, and how balanced HA are against the other classes. But as it stands, AV guns are not overpowered against vehicles. There is literally no footage to support anything otherwise.

I only say wait for beta to see if there is an issue because we have only seen evidence to the contrary from the footage we've seen thus far.

[The noob]

I wouldn't be surprised if vehicle entry/delay times were a cert you could cert into, it may have not been in the build shown in the stream (they did say that this was using an older build compared to the more unstable, not QAed builds). If it isn't, and its instant, they should add in a delay towards entering and exiting vehicles, and create a certification for reducing (but not removing) the enter/exit times.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by Reefpirate

I'm pretty sure Higby popped the shield on in the video... He got the glowy blue effect around his arms. No?

I watched it again, and you're right... he did, right before he died. I missed it the first time around. So perhaps the shield isn't enough to survive a direct hit from a tank. I'm pretty sure that it'd been mentioned in the E3 footage that the purpose of that shield was primarily to allow them to survive against armor long enough for them to fight back.

If not, the majority of my concern is nullified.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by QuantumMechanic

I hope that all of the classes are roughly equal in terms of perks and class abilities. But I sure hope they are not roughly equal in terms of survivability on the battlefield.

I think there's a big difference between a Heavy Assault guy jumping out of his Vanguard with his heavy armor, shield ability and AV rocket launcher versus an Engineer jumping out of his Vanguard with his flak armor, repair tool and SMG/carbine/turret.

Remember that an Engineer can drop a MANA turret and mow down a HA, while LA can jump to crazy vantage points to get the drop on HA or use their jump jets to escape a situation where HA has the advantage.

Clearly HA should and will have the superior armor and firepower in a straight up brawl, but the other classes will still be balanced and be able to take out HA in a 1 on 1 fight, so long as they play to their strengths. Just the same, HA will win so long as they keep a good eye on where LA is attacking from and don't rush in front of an engi manning a turret.

Obviously HA's particular strengths tend to play more to surviving encounters with enemy vehicles and dealing damage to them than some of the other classes, but they aren't AA gods like a MAX can be. So far, both aircraft and tanks seem perfectly capable of slaughtering a HA standing out in the open.

So if HA aren't mass slaughtering the tanks and aircraft who shot down the vehicles that they bailed from, and if HA isn't inherently superior to other classes in infantry warfare, what's the big problem with letting them drive all of the same vehicles as everyone else can drive?

[Kriegson]

Like most balance discussion, I feel like it's a "Wait and see in beta" just like most else. Though something does come to mind...

Vehicles attract attention. Squishy humans amidst big nasty vehicles often get pasted quickly. That includes Rexos, as we saw with higby. Yes, the rexo might give you a few moments of defiance, but ultimately unless you bail in a very good spot (can get into cover almost instantly) You're still toast.

And what you can do in that limited amount of time between appearing next to your vehicle and getting pasted is still up to debate.

Alternatively, piloting as an LA you have a built in ejector seat. A player appearing next to his vehicle and attempting to sprint off will be a relatively easy target. Someone popping out of their vehicle and shooting off into the sky will prove quite a bit more problematic.
Especially when it comes to aircraft, where with the glider pack you can control your descent to a far higher degree.

Ultimately the Rexo while piloting might give you an extra shot or two (for what its worth) but Light assault ironically gives you much better chances for survival due to the ability to move quickly and unpredictably after bailing.

Not to mention the engineer can repair his own vehicle, the medic can better establish a base, and an infil could feasibly use a tank as a ruse, turning what appears to be a brute force rush by "some idiot ramboing it" into an opportunity to sneak into an enemy base with the fools thinking they killed him and partying around the burned out husk of his decoy.

[Reefpirate]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

I watched it again, and you're right... he did, right before he died. I missed it the first time around. So perhaps the shield isn't enough to survive a direct hit from a tank. I'm pretty sure that it'd been mentioned in the E3 footage that the purpose of that shield was primarily to allow them to survive against armor long enough for them to fight back.

Click to view 9:45 seconds into the stream

Ok, I just watched that part about 6 times in a row, here's how I see it went down:

- Lightning gets totally owned by the Magrider despite getting the jump on it with some free volleys.
- Higby bails.
- (This is where it gets confusing)
- Higby hits Magrider with a rocket.
- Higby starts to flee the Lighting as it is destroyed by the Magrider...
- Higby pops the HA shield, but also seems to simultaneously take damage from the Lighting being destroyed (damage from Mag shell I guess) and his HA shield is knocked down significantly while his personal shields also seem to get knocked down.
- Higby fires another rocket at almost the same time Magrider fires the killing blow.
- Dead Higby. Magrider survives but it's uncertain what sort of condition it is in.

[Talek Krell]

As people have observed, it depends on a lot of things that we aren't really sure of yet. I suspect that letting them fly might still be a bit much. If you can fire while bailing then the lock on rocket launchers will present an issue. Even if you can't then that's still a terribly easy method of getting HA weaponry and a rocket launcher into close range, with a strafing run to make things even easier. The cost of the vehicle is a potential balancing factor for that, but whether it discourages it that much is to be seen.

On a separate note, I think it would be interesting to see what effects banning HA from driving various things would have on the use of transport vehicles.

[QuantumMechanic]

Originally Posted by Xyntech

So if HA aren't mass slaughtering the tanks and aircraft who shot down the vehicles that they bailed from, and if HA isn't inherently superior to other classes in infantry warfare, what's the big problem with letting them drive all of the same vehicles as everyone else can drive?

For me, it's simply that of all the infantry classes HA has the distinct advantage in this situation (bailing from a vehicle only to further attack your aggressor). Specifically you have your heavy armor and shield (which is meant to protect you from vehicle attacks as has been said).

I agree that the classes overall should be balanced out against each other as you pointed out. But if you want to maximize your effectiveness in vehicles, I see no reason not to go as HA. As long as you have your vehicle's auto armor repair speed certed up, there's no reason to go as Engineer.

I suppose this is by design. And yes, we'll see how it pans out in beta. But I won't be surprised when I see everybody copying what Higby did in the stream today.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by Reefpirate

Ok, I just watched that part about 6 times in a row, here's how I see it went down:

- Lightning gets totally owned by the Magrider despite getting the jump on it with some free volleys.
- Higby bails.
- (This is where it gets confusing)
- Higby hits Magrider with a rocket.
- Higby starts to flee the Lighting as it is destroyed by the Magrider...
- Higby pops the HA shield, but also seems to simultaneously take damage from the Lighting being destroyed (damage from Mag shell I guess) and his HA shield is knocked down significantly while his personal shields also seem to get knocked down.
- Higby fires another rocket at almost the same time Magrider fires the killing blow.
- Dead Higby. Magrider survives but it's uncertain what sort of condition it is in.

Yeah, I see what you mean. It looks like the shield goes up right as the Lightning explodes, which takes out most of the shield. I'm assuming the little indicator at the center bottom is the strength of the shield. At the very least, the shield appears to have allowed him to survive the explosion of the Lightning and first Magrider tank round.

So... perhaps I should be concerned about the ability for HA to pop that shield after bailing from a vehicle to use AV. I guess we'll have to Wait-And-See-In-Beta™.

Originally Posted by Kriegson

Ultimately the Rexo while piloting might give you an extra shot or two (for what its worth) but Light assault ironically gives you much better chances for survival due to the ability to move quickly and unpredictably after bailing.

Not to mention the engineer can repair his own vehicle, the medic can better establish a base, and an infil could feasibly use a tank as a ruse, turning what appears to be a brute force rush by "some idiot ramboing it" into an opportunity to sneak into an enemy base with the fools thinking they killed him and partying around the burned out husk of his decoy.

Survival is one thing... being able to survive and strike back is another. Either way, changing dismounting to take several seconds may be the solution we need. Or, it may just cause people to begin the bail far too early.