MAX Abilities

[Salad Snake]

Personally I don't really like the timer thing, it's just not a very elegant solution, but I don't see any other obvious way to balance them. You could put a resource cost on them (and I feel like that'd be much more "realistic" feeling), but that really wouldn't reduce their use, just means the same player can't use a MAX over & over again unless they're rolling in resources, they'll still be far too many in the total group of players.

Do MAX's get directional damage? Do they get headshot? And what is this MAX-killer class suppose to be? Hopefully not a MAX-variant, balancing a class or weapon with itself is almost always not enough to make it "actually" balanced.

I feel the MAX should be a unit with a clearly-defined strength, which it already has, and a clear weakness. So if a player feels like using a MAX 2 or 3 lives in a row they can (freedom of choice would be the most fun for the player), but at the same time introduce something that's pretty effective to extremely effective at fighting MAX's so the player is eventually forced out of the MAX not due to hard limits (the game telling him "no"), but because the enemy adapted and it stopped being effective (the player's own choice). It'd be better if the player felt that they made the decision themselves to stop using MAX's.

As a second main design objective, make the MAX's fun to fight as well, especially for the anti-MAX class/weapon/loadout. I imagine that the problem with MAX's is similar to the problem the Heavy used to have in TF2; bland to play (especially for a long time), not fun to fight for just about everyone, and way too effective in large numbers even though they're balanced in moderate ones.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by RoninOni

I don't... that's kinda the whole point.

Now, you could run up to a terminal and swap your gear... sure.

But nah, MAXes are special units and should be treated as such. A timer is a pretty fine way to do that.

5min reducable to 2min through certs (3 levels) seams reasonable enough to me. If you need to spam MAXes more than once every 2 min, then I suggest you don't throw yourself out there so fast, and maybe get some HA practice. An engineer buddy wouldn't be amiss either. Maybe you can even take turns!

That'll eat up your timer won't it?

Let's explain this a different way.

Why not put timers on HA and LA? They are special infantry types as well you know. LA has jump jets and HA has shields. Engineers are special too because they can drop turrets, mines, and supply boxes. And what about medic? Too many of those on the field means you'll never get through infantry formations.

The MAX suit is a specialized form of infantry, their advantage is superior armor. Their firepower is probably about the same as any other infantry in the game The only difference between them and infantry is that it's easier to stay alive a bit longer in one, thus allowing for a higher KDR which is pointless in PS1 and 2. Because the game is not built around killing the enemy.

The MAX suit doesn't need a stupid timer. It needs to be balanced relative to infantry and vehicles in a combat situation. And right now they appear to work just fine. They actually go down from small arms fire in this game.

And yes MAX suits are infantry and will suffer from head shots. Snipers can kill them in 2 to 3 shots if they aim right.

[RoninOni]

The other infantry units are standard classes.

MAXes are SUPPOSED to be stronger and tougher than any other Infantry.

SO either they have to balance MAX entirely with the other infantry (likely making them to weak in the process) OR they can have some other drawback to counter balance their greater survivability and armament.

Personally, I'd rather see MAXes set up to be stronger with a counter balance.

TBQH: I would have suggested a default of 10 min and reduceable to 5min but figured too many people would QQ about it so settled on a far less intrusive 5/2min CD which is pretty damn insignificant IMO...

I mean really... if you want to focus on MAX, and you can't stay alive for 2 min... then you have no right to complain about not getting another IMO.

That is my opinion, but I think it's more than valid.

[Renegadeknight]

A maxs main weakness is it's slow movement, large size and inability to duck. I'm assuming that they will have difficulty moving through open areas, but also destroying in close quarters. Alot of the bases in ps2 are very open so this should give standard infantry an advantage. I can't say for certain that it will perform like this since I haven't played yet and haven't gotten to see one in action. For all I know they could be completely overpowered or extremely underpowered. We haven't seen them so all of this is just speculation until we play.

[RoninOni]

w/e

Our discussion here is really meaningless.

I expect we will see either some CD or some Resource cost (perhaps even both) applied to MAX spawning before release... but maybe we won't.

Time will tell.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by RoninOni

TBQH: I would have suggested a default of 10 min and reduceable to 5min but figured too many people would QQ about it so settled on a far less intrusive 5/2min CD which is pretty damn insignificant IMO...

That statement right there shows how ineffective you are as a couch developer when it comes to balance.

You don't seem to look at the whole picture, you focus on one specific item and one thing that it interacts with. You ignore the fact that vehicles will play a much bigger role in base take overs and that MAX suits will spend a lot of time outdoors as well as indoors.

You also fail to realize the MAX suits own built in weaknesses which will have dramatic consequences on their survivability.

The MAX suit is an infantry class, just like HA and LA. It is not "special" just because it has superior armor (again, HA has superior armor as well). It's firepower is equal to any other infantry unit and it's purpose is to absorb more damage so that the infantry can do their jobs. It has a role side by side with infantry just like any other infantry class has. Calling it anything else is just an attempt to nerf the thing before you even have to face off with it.

And the timer idea is stupid to begin with. This is nothing but an irritation, something the DEVs need to fight tooth and nail to avoid having in their game. In fact I'd say remove the timers from vehicles as well. Resources work a lot better then timers for controlling their numbers and making them valuable assets. Timers only serve to annoy players and it doesn't stop a lot of the things most players are afraid of, like MAX crashes. It's an outdated and obsolete balancing tool that was only used in PS1 because nothing else was available to curb the use of vehicles and MAX suits.

If MAX suits were given a resource, fine. I really doubt this will be the case because they are an infantry class. But at least the resource cost is a softer cap on the MAX suit then a stupid annoying irritating timer that can do more to drive players away from using the suit entirely it can to balance it out.

[Gonzo]

I don't think that the MAX's firepower will be "equal to any other infantry unit" like you keep saying. The MAX AI weapons will outclass most infantry weapons, and aside from HA, MAXs are the only other class that can equip AV weapons. MAX AV weapons also have much better firerate than the single-shot launchers available to HA. Of course, if a max splits it's weapon types, which may end up fairly common, it will lessen its advantages. But I expect a full AI MAX to easily outgun other infantry classes at shorter ranges.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

I don't think MAXs need a timer, necessarily, since there are no longer 3 of them. I don't see a problem with them having a resource cost. They are not "terminators" (spoken as someone who plays MAXs a lot). They have plenty of inherent disadvantages, in both PS1 and PS2.

Regarding what the thread OP was actually about...

I haven't seen anything about MAX abilities, either. The TR is obviously going to have lockdown (either by default or as a cert) but no idea about the others yet.

[scroogh]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

That statement right there shows how ineffective you are as a couch developer when it comes to balance.

You don't seem to look at the whole picture, you focus on one specific item and one thing that it interacts with. You ignore the fact that vehicles will play a much bigger role in base take overs and that MAX suits will spend a lot of time outdoors as well as indoors.

You also fail to realize the MAX suits own built in weaknesses which will have dramatic consequences on their survivability.

The MAX suit is an infantry class, just like HA and LA. It is not "special" just because it has superior armor (again, HA has superior armor as well). It's firepower is equal to any other infantry unit and it's purpose is to absorb more damage so that the infantry can do their jobs. It has a role side by side with infantry just like any other infantry class has. Calling it anything else is just an attempt to nerf the thing before you even have to face off with it.

And the timer idea is stupid to begin with. This is nothing but an irritation, something the DEVs need to fight tooth and nail to avoid having in their game. In fact I'd say remove the timers from vehicles as well. Resources work a lot better then timers for controlling their numbers and making them valuable assets. Timers only serve to annoy players and it doesn't stop a lot of the things most players are afraid of, like MAX crashes. It's an outdated and obsolete balancing tool that was only used in PS1 because nothing else was available to curb the use of vehicles and MAX suits.

If MAX suits were given a resource, fine. I really doubt this will be the case because they are an infantry class. But at least the resource cost is a softer cap on the MAX suit then a stupid annoying irritating timer that can do more to drive players away from using the suit entirely it can to balance it out.

This person, this person right here gets it.

When you're fighting a MAX and it kills you are you really going to say to your self "Well it's on a timer, so that's balanced" No, because it being on a timer means fuck all when you're actually fighting one.

The real way to balance the MAX unit is to chip away and add on to its different parts of its versatility. What I mean to say is if a MAX player is rocking anti-infantry and anti-air. You better get a damn tank because if you do the MAX player is boned. Especially if they're specialized with 2 of the same weapon.

Edit: And I'm just saying IF the balance is required, that's the way to do it. I have no way of knowing the state of balance anyway.

[Salad Snake]

Originally Posted by Salad Snake

Personally I don't really like the timer thing, it's just not a very elegant solution, but I don't see any other obvious way to balance them. You could put a resource cost on them (and I feel like that'd be much more "realistic" feeling), but that really wouldn't reduce their use, just means the same player can't use a MAX over & over again unless they're rolling in resources, they'll still be far too many in the total group of players.

Do MAX's get directional damage? Do they get headshot? And what is this MAX-killer class suppose to be? Hopefully not a MAX-variant, balancing a class or weapon with itself is almost always not enough to make it "actually" balanced.

I feel the MAX should be a unit with a clearly-defined strength, which it already has, and a clear weakness. So if a player feels like using a MAX 2 or 3 lives in a row they can (freedom of choice would be the most fun for the player), but at the same time introduce something that's pretty effective to extremely effective at fighting MAX's so the player is eventually forced out of the MAX not due to hard limits (the game telling him "no"), but because the enemy adapted and it stopped being effective (the player's own choice). It'd be better if the player felt that they made the decision themselves to stop using MAX's.

As a second main design objective, make the MAX's fun to fight as well, especially for the anti-MAX class/weapon/loadout. I imagine that the problem with MAX's is similar to the problem the Heavy used to have in TF2; bland to play (especially for a long time), not fun to fight for just about everyone, and way too effective in large numbers even though they're balanced in moderate ones.

Anybody? Does the MAX take directional damage or get headshot?

[RoninOni]

wtf ever.

I'm not going to deal with you just cause you want to spawn as a MAX every single time.

The MAX can equip itself to be an AA or AV MACHINE. In a way no other infantry class can even come CLOSE to matching. It can pump out AV damage at a rate to make the HA's hang their heads in shame and hang up their RL's. Their AA flak cannons are FAR more effective than lock on with the HA RL. and when outfitted with AI guns they put out a DECIMATING amount of fire.

They can also equip 1 each AI/AV and will still be more effective at laying out punishment to both Inf and Tanks than an HA can do without even needing to swap weapons.

Yes, they can't avoid damage as well, but they can take a lot more in turn, and when supported with engineers will be a truly tank worthy infantry unit in a manner no other class even comes close to rivaling.

But no, they need no other counter balances whatsoever :roll: No, there aren't loads of people complaining that MAXes are FAR too prevalent in every fight, no not at all.

Argue with me all you want. When the patches come down the line as the game nears release, we'll see who has the last laugh.

Ultimately it's up to SOE, not us... and personally I have faith that MAXes will see either a resource cost or a timer associated with them before beta is finished. You don't. We'll see who's right now won't we

[scroogh]

Originally Posted by RoninOni

wtf ever.

I'm not going to deal with you just cause you want to spawn as a MAX every single time.

The MAX can equip itself to be an AA or AV MACHINE. In a way no other infantry class can even come CLOSE to matching. It can pump out AV damage at a rate to make the HA's hang their heads in shame and hang up their RL's. Their AA flak cannons are FAR more effective than lock on with the HA RL. and when outfitted with AI guns they put out a DECIMATING amount of fire.

They can also equip 1 each AI/AV and will still be more effective at laying out punishment to both Inf and Tanks than an HA can do without even needing to swap weapons.

Yes, they can't avoid damage as well, but they can take a lot more in turn, and when supported with engineers will be a truly tank worthy infantry unit in a manner no other class even comes close to rivaling.

But no, they need no other counter balances whatsoever :roll: No, there aren't loads of people complaining that MAXes are FAR too prevalent in every fight, no not at all.

Argue with me all you want. When the patches come down the line as the game nears release, we'll see who has the last laugh.

Ultimately it's up to SOE, not us... and personally I have faith that MAXes will see either a resource cost or a timer associated with them before beta is finished. You don't. We'll see who's right now won't we

And how exactly is adding a timer going to help in so far as balance goes? Is it going to help because AFTER you kill the MAX you won't have to deal with that particular guy playing as max for 5 minutes or so? I'd really like to know how adding a timer has more pros than cons.

Originally Posted by Salad Snake

Anybody? Does the MAX take directional damage or get headshot?

In some alpha footage I saw total biscuit confirmed that max units do indeed receive additional damage from head shots. Part of an e3 stream.

[Noon]

I'm pretty much tapped on Max info, since I've spent most of my free time reading up on the Medic .

One thing I have noticed though, and kinda hoped for; is that terrain will be a issue for MAX's. No reason those massive killing machines should be able to maneuver as nimbly as someone without.

And I am betting the Engineer will probably get something that will F'up enemy MAX's. Just seems appropriate for them to be able to (build em up, and break em down).

[Salad Snake]

Originally Posted by scroogh

In some alpha footage I saw total biscuit confirmed that max units do indeed receive additional damage from head shots. Part of an e3 stream.

Ah, well there's a potential weakness right there; snipers. That can spell doom for a MAX outside. Now, for indoor combat....perhaps an explosive weapon that has a sub-par splash but is armor-piercing? I'm thinking something you switch grenades out for.


I'm okay with a timer, but again, I think it's just not an elegant solution. I think a balance can be made that preserves player freedom of choice.

[MaxDamage]

Originally Posted by Salad Snake

Ah, well there's a potential weakness right there; snipers. That can spell doom for a MAX outside. Now, for indoor combat....perhaps an explosive weapon that has a sub-par splash but is armor-piercing? I'm thinking something you switch grenades out for.


I'm okay with a timer, but again, I think it's just not an elegant solution. I think a balance can be made that preserves player freedom of choice.

It's so weird reading replies from people who are unfamiliar with Planetside 1 trying to think up solutions that already exist.

1 word: Decimator.