Sunderer AMS made defense more pointless - Page 2

GLaDOS · 2012-11-19, 03:42 PM

Agreed. I would also like to see a tech plant being required to spawn Sundies elsewhere than the warpgate, but that might be a bit much.

Figment · 2012-11-19, 03:44 PM

We've taken out a whole lot of Sunderers by simply flanking the big group with LA and a bit of C4, they're generally easy to find and poorly protected, hell you can just stroll quietly from behind through a zerg group as they don't really expect enemies to come from there and strawl into a huge group of their friendlies, place the C4, blow it up then kill a few before they realise you were there. Funny how group psychology works. The interference radius does spread them out a bit and you can often take out the extras before they can be deployed. It would help greatly if infiltrators could take care of these too, but alas, no perma-cloak, no C4, no mines, lack of mines in general.

The problem is not so much that they CAN be pulled at any friendly outpost, in fact, without it defense of these outposts would be even worse than it is now. The problem is that they can be pulled in quantities and at both enemy and friendly bases by the enemy by anyone and with great ease.

Why?

1. EVERYONE has immediate access to Sunderers. It is NOT a specialization.
2. The AMS cert is the most logical and rewarding function on the Sunderer and it therefore supercedes other Sunderer functionalities for most people. On top of that, it is relatively cheap.
3. Despite of the timer and cost of bringing the timer down, it is fairly rewarding to invest heavily in toning down the timer of the Sunderer-AMS and since sundies aren't deployed in the front line, timers usualy run out. At least they do for me unless pulled during an enemy zerg attack and driving into a couple tanks right of the pad.
4. Cost is relatively easy to circumvent if you have a lot of territory on the continent.
5. If you have one Sunderer AMS, equip term, spawn beacon or other spawn point nearby you can get an infil suit, walk up to an enemy terminal and perma-hack it open to your side.
6. Since everyone can get an infil suit and everyone can convert terminals, this means every vehicle terminal will deliver Sunderers.

Combine all of the above and you get a whole lot of Sunderers. If you tie it to a type of base, this will only make the strongest zerging empire even stronger. This is not so much a Sunderer only thing as it is the design philosophy that everyone must have access to every role in game. It's also why we have tank spam, why everyone has AV and why everyone can be a medic and why everyone can be an engineer, sniper, MAX, etc.

We're not creating unique characters and we are not carving our own role or reputation within the empire. THAT is the real issue with the numbers.

The developers stated before that they can't split the costs for different types of Sunderers. They can't make the AMS version more expensive nor can they make the basic Sunderer cheaper. My main beaf with the Sunderer then is that you won't use it as a throw away cheap transport and storm ram to get troops into enemy bases, which is what it was meant to be initially.

Of course... that's one of the reasons why I advised against using the Sunderer as an AMS, even if we did need a ground based AMS as clearly demonstrated by combat flow changes. They luckily did pick up on all the other visual and practical use cues I've been hammering on it needed if they wanted to have it this role (clearly visible term, placed on the sides rather than rear, clear deployed mode, recognisable from a distance, interference radius and radius visible on the map as per Hayoo's old idea). They've taken much more thought about those practical design element and they are to be commended on that.

But ultimately, it'd been better had it been an actual AMS and had people been forced to make a choice in what type of units they'd be using.

Doing everything will ultimately make the game more boring too, because you'll never get a chance to rediscover your character as something entirely different: it will always be: been there, done that. In PS1, you regularly heard stories of players that went "I got kinda bored doing this or this routine for two years, so I just completely recerted my character for the first time and wow, I can go on playing and refining my skill for ages again!".

*crosses fingers the "you can do everything" design can still be removed from the game, even post-launch*

MrBloodworth · 2012-11-19, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by basti

Aye, the real problem is that Sundys can be pulled everywhere. It shouldnt be that way, not at all.

Availability is fine.The Problem is the Sunderer frame. The old AMS was simply better. ( AND added more methods of play to multiple disciplines )

I have never agreed with the idea of putting a logistical resource on a frame that can bring the firepower of a tank.

This is a side effect of that.

Sifer2 · 2012-11-19, 04:48 PM

I agree I don't like the everyone can do everything design. But were probably stuck with it.

I also think Sunderer is too strong a vehicle to be the spawn vehicle. But were also probably stuck with it at least until they can find the time to build a new vehicle.

In the mean time I do believe the availability should be less. Either through not available outside of base terminals. Or through a much longer acquisition timer. Though I think the former would be better. They could also stand to increase the cert cost of the AMS ability.

ZaiRoX · 2012-11-19, 04:55 PM

Sooo...

1. Kill your own vehicle term. (Yeah, that's one thing from PS1 they didn't change). As far as I know, you can't repair enemy terms (?)

2. 200m deploy radius made multiple sunderes quite useless.

If anything I'd bet that the sundy ams gets buffed.

Sifer2 · 2012-11-19, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by ZaiRoX

2. 200m deploy radius made multiple sunderes quite useless.

How so? Right now it just means you move the zerg 200m. Cause every Sundy driver deploys all over the area. It's rare that I don't see at least 3 deployed around every base with more in reserve to deploy if those go down.

Rothnang · 2012-11-19, 05:13 PM

I think the 200 meter deploy radius is an ugly solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. The only reason why deploy restrictions exist is because there are too many Sunderers in the field to begin with.

ZaiRoX · 2012-11-19, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sifer2

How so? Right now it just means you move the zerg 200m. Cause every Sundy driver deploys all over the area. It's rare that I don't see at least 3 deployed around every base with more in reserve to deploy if those go down.

You actually have to be around to deploy it though.

The thing is. This is the model that SOE created for this game. Anyone can drive anything and use everything. You have to love it or hate it. Personally I hate it, but atleast I can accept it.

In PS1 the majority didn't feel it was worth sacrificing two certs for a support vehicle. Their lifespawn was short and somewhat unrewarding. It didn't help that half the playerbase had a personal nuclear bomb either.

PS1 also had bases that were easier to defend, but they were also harder to push out from.
Sure, eventually someone OS'd the last AMS, or brought in a lib and bombed it. Or the pop changed and you simply overwhelmed the enemy. That's how it worked. It wasn't grunts who killed the AMS's though. Not in a zerg vs zerg fight atleast.

Piper · 2012-11-19, 05:36 PM

Of course you could always do what we did in Ps1, and you know....kill them. Such a novel idea! Use Infil's to locate 'em, use airchav to moider 'em.

As Zairox rightly just said, the problem is not the AMS. The problem is that everyone is identical to everyone else within a 20% margin by design.

Everyone can pull everything. There is no "I'll take this playstyle at the expense of not having this playstyle". However that is now seemingly fixed, they won't alter that aspect of the class/vehicle system post launch.

Rothnang · 2012-11-19, 06:51 PM

I don't think people being able to pull anything they want is the problem, it's more that if you're going to play Infantry you simply pull a Sunderer and park it somewhere, get the extra XP, spend a resource you do nothing with anyways...

The problem is that there is no effort involved in it, because the thing that keeps other vehicles from being overused is that when you pull them you are committed to them.

BigpermCML · 2012-11-19, 07:04 PM

"at the expense of your KDR"

Stopped reading there

Rothnang · 2012-11-19, 07:12 PM

That was sarcasm because there are a lot of idiots in this game who will abandon any fight where their KDR will suffer instantly.

I mean KDR basically means nothing in this game. If you never even leave the warpgate without a fighter or tank you'll have a hard time not having a positive KDR. On the other hand, if you ever stick around once the spawnroom doors have become dangerous your KDR will suck, no matter if you're an awesome player.

Fear The Amish · 2012-11-19, 07:14 PM

I don't see sundie as a problem they are easily destroyed by air, LA's wreck them with C4, Tanks eat them. Also some of my funnest times have been defending towers/bases 2 squads holding the base and the 3rd going heavy assault and going sundie hunting. I think OP's problem is he lone wolf's it a lil too much or rolls with open squads. Roll with an outfit and sundies cease to be a problem.

MrDawkins · 2012-11-19, 07:17 PM

OP you know how PS1 solved these issues?

Hard cert cap and you needed to cert to drive. Also it was an AMS ONLY! Sundy should be a sundy, nothing more.

Crator · 2012-11-19, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by MrDawkins

OP you know how PS1 solved these issues?

Hard cert cap and you needed to cert to drive. Also it was an AMS ONLY! Sundy should be a sundy, nothing more.

^ This. The issue is how can you do that in PS2.