Higby on Magriders - Page 2

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 06:48 PM

The tank balance went way too far. Even before the patch Prowlers and Vanguards were on even footing with Magriders for skilled players, The devs just don't seem to care about what skilled players do, and only balance by averages. So now horrible players can compete with Prowlers and Vanguards and good players can absolutely dominate in them.

Mox · 2013-02-18, 06:59 PM

The magrider was absolutly op. Now there is some kind of balance. Well the mag still strafe and shoot like a huge sniper rifle but the other mbts are also not bad now. Therefore no cause for the whine.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 07:10 PM

What good is strafing when the enemy shots move so fast that you can't dodge them anyways? What good is maneuverability if an enemy can stop you from getting behind him by simply hitting A or D?

It has the worst weapon now, the worst armor, and all this talk about superior maneuverability is just flat out bullshit, if you aren't a complete idiot you can keep your front facing the Magrider at all times easily.

Bear · 2013-02-18, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The tank balance went way too far. Even before the patch Prowlers and Vanguards were on even footing with Magriders for skilled players, The devs just don't seem to care about what skilled players do, and only balance by averages. So now horrible players can compete with Prowlers and Vanguards and good players can absolutely dominate in them.

Roth, the Magrider adjustments were the result of the Mag outperforming BOTH of the other factions MBT's. Not because of opinions or perceptions but because the ACTUAL NUMBERS showed that Mags were better. There's also ample video out there showing mags driving up damn near vertical cliffs, something they were never intended to do. Did the VS avoid this, absolutely not, they used that broken mechanic to their advantage for over a month. Unfortunately we can't cry enough to get the games lead designer to spend time in our vehicles.

The Prowler and Vanguards weren't adjusted because the NC and TR were crying incessantly about the power of their armor. They were adjusted based on data. Personally I think the adjustments were absurd from the TR side because in order to use their advantages, they literally have to lock themselves down in one spot. Not exactly a great tactical decision when one faction has a massive mobility advantage. You can also forget about going toe to toe with a Vanguard because their armor is formidable and you're probably not going to survive.

As for the other drivel that Assist posted. BRIT left Waterson almost two weeks ago. As a result, on Friday night during the peak of play, the VS had a 22% population advantage on Amerish, a 14% advantage on Esamir and were dead even on Indar.

The biggest fundamental problem I see is that a lot of VS outfits have absolutely no fucking imagination. Every single base assault is the same God damn thing. Roll in with an absurd amount of Magriders and hope and pray that you can survive long enough to actually cap a base. God forbid you actually have to get out of your tank to cap it. For those of you that don't have the joy of playing on Waterson against these geniuses of tactical doctrine, here's what every base assault looks like:

Assit, we run ops on Wednesday, Friday and Sunday nights so if you'd like to join the party I'd be happy to tell you where we're going to be. Please join us and bring some friends. I will warn you though, you're going to have to get out of your Liberator or your Mag, whatever you used to spam bases and pump your K/D. You're going to need to get on the ground and slug it out. I won't be hard to find, I'm usually one of the first ones in line.

ShadetheDruid · 2013-02-18, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The tank balance went way too far. Even before the patch Prowlers and Vanguards were on even footing with Magriders for skilled players, The devs just don't seem to care about what skilled players do, and only balance by averages. So now horrible players can compete with Prowlers and Vanguards and good players can absolutely dominate in them.

Balancing by "skilled" players is a horrible idea. That's the quickest way to screw the less skilled amongst us. Balancing by the "average" player is the way to go.

I also don't know how you jumped (more like a massive leap) from "average" to "horrible".

Bear · 2013-02-18, 07:20 PM

Hmmm.......Higby's data.....yup...looks fair to me.

http://i.imgur.com/8Ouhkqs.png

Based on this data, it's clear how just insanely OP that Mags were prior to GU2. Look at the drop off after the update, no wonder the VS are crying.

I'd expect the Prowlers to be getting hit with the nerf bat in the next week or so. As it should be.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

Balancing by "skilled" players is a horrible idea. That's the quickest way to screw the less skilled amongst us. Balancing by the "average" player is the way to go.

I also don't know how you jumped (more like a massive leap) from "average" to "horrible".

I didn't say they should balance the game only on what the most skilled players do, but they should have tried to improve the ease of use for the Prowler and Vanguard instead of just increasing their stats.

Let's say all tanks previously had 100 combat potential, Magriders were better because the average Magrider player could tap maybe 75% of that, while the average Prowler/Vanguard player could only tap maybe 50% of that.
What SOE did to balance it out was simply crank the Prowler/Vanguard up to 150 combat potential, so that the 50% of that line up with the 75% of the Magrider. But what about Prowler/Vanguard players who were using 90% of their tanks potential before? They are now at a point where no Magrider player can ever be.

The right way to go would have been contemplating how to slowly raise the ease of use of Prowler/Vanguard to Magrider levels so that the average player can tap the same amount of potential, instead of just raising the total potential.

BIGGByran · 2013-02-18, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

What good is strafing when the enemy shots move so fast that you can't dodge them anyways? What good is maneuverability if an enemy can stop you from getting behind him by simply hitting A or D?

It has the worst weapon now, the worst armor, and all this talk about superior maneuverability is just flat out bullshit, if you aren't a complete idiot you can keep your front facing the Magrider at all times easily.

Your right, we could keep our front facing the mag at all time, but then we would be sitting ducks, unable to dodge any attacks by doing so. We have to be on our "sides" to be able to dodge attacks from our "front" and "rear" but then lose the ability to dodge from our "sides," if you know what I mean, while a mag does not lose it's ability to dodge attacks no matter which way it is facing.

When I play my VS Mag, I am like a ballerina, doing twist and turn to avoid all damage. I don't always keep my front facing the enemy if it means I will take damage, I sometimes turn to my sides to avoid damage. I don't notice very many Mags when I play my NC, but the few that I did, I did notice they weren't as quick to move as they use to be. If that is the bug that Higby is talking about, then I hope they fix it soon.

I think the increase in velocity for AP rounds ONLY is good, as it is ment to kill tanks, but the prowler kinda got over kill on their Heat rounds with the damage buff and velocity buff on top of their ability. I played my TR char and was 2nd gunner to a Prowler. When anchored, wow, nothing within reasonable tank combat range could dodge those shells.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 07:34 PM

AP rounds have always been faster than other rounds. And yea, the Prowler in lockdown mode is absolutely absurd. It's shells move way faster than the LASER from a Saron.

Also, the whole "I can't turn my front and dodge at the same time" thing is simply wrong, sorry. Your front armor is still facing when you are at a 45° angle to the target shooting at you, and that means if you're moving backward and forward you achieve about 70% of your forward/backward movement in angular velocity to the target. That's actually FASTER than a Magrider can dodge. Of course keeping your hull at a perfect 45° angle is not humanly possible, but to achieve the 20km/h dodge speed of a Magrider you don't have to, you can keep it somewhere around 30° and still get the desired result.

Mordelicius · 2013-02-18, 07:42 PM

SOE should have fixed the Magrider when the game launched. It was far too blatantly OP and we were calling it the first week: http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=50615

Instead they let the Vanu get addicted to the MBT easy win button.

Pre-GU2, Magriders qualities:
- Hovercraft's extreme maneuverability
- tank's armor and HP
- artillery's range
- accuracy of a sniper
- climbing ability of a mountaingoat

Here's a video of what the Vanu, who can't accept GU2, expect from their tank: Note how much havoc and destruction a single tank has wrought all over the place with. That's one tank. One.

Instant flanking (check)
Instant blindsiding (check)
Instant evasion (check)
Instant escape (check)
Ignores terrain limits/barriers (check)
No dead angles (check)
Stabilized guns (check)
Kill streaks (check)

It's like a Rambo/Ninja tank

Now, can a Vanguard or Prowler do any of that pre-GU2 or post-GU2?

BIGGByran · 2013-02-18, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The right way to go would have been contemplating how to slowly raise the ease of use of Prowler/Vanguard to Magrider levels so that the average player can tap the same amount of potential, instead of just raising the total potential.

I think weapon stabilization would have help TR and NC A LOT. That ALONE would raise the fighting potential of the user in the tank. Aiming on the move is like jumping while firing on infantry, you just going of a lot of luck. We have to stand still and aim our shots for it to land, but then we can't dodge. So like I said earlier, weapon stabilization should kinda put us on par with Mag minus the dodging ability.

Do you know the acceleration speed of a Vanguard!! lol it takes about 3 seconds to make it move, then another 2 seconds for it to gain any decent speed.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 07:59 PM

You can dodge just fine in a Prowler or Vanguard, read my above post. But yea, some kind of gun stabilization would have been a MUCH better approach to balance than what we have now.

Rasui · 2013-02-18, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Hmmm.......Higby's data.....yup...looks fair to me.

http://i.imgur.com/8Ouhkqs.png

Based on this data, it's clear how just insanely OP that Mags were prior to GU2. Look at the drop off after the update, no wonder the VS are crying.

I'd expect the Prowlers to be getting hit with the nerf bat in the next week or so. As it should be.

Ok, those numbers are cool and all, but can you pinpoint EXACTLY what made the Mag so OP? Because from my personal experience over the last few months, it mostly came down to VS tankers learning VERY early on that the Saron was a good weapon. Meanwhile you had the NC/TR with the perception that their secondary weapons were garbage by comparison.

The result? Myself and a friend were wracking up UNGODLY armor to armor kill counts going up against 1/2 (Crew) HE Prowlers and 1/2 stock Vanguards. It's little wonder we slaughtered them, we had literally every advantage in our favor. From abusing the Saron's ease of use at range, to running a dedicated Heat/AP lineup against stock/undercrewed enemy armor. The few times we did come up against equally upgraded enemy armor it was a damn tough fight. And if it was a Vulcan Prowler at close/medium range. We could usually kiss our ass goodbye.

Xaine · 2013-02-18, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Is there a faction that cries more than the Vanu? Seriously, the minute they can't climb up and down every sixty degree slope their world ends? No way to cling to a mountainside and spam a base, the the games unplayable? When they can't simply mag spam every base that have absolutely no tactical alternative? They've got a laser for a main gun, no range considerations and the ability to strafe an they still can't win a 1 v 1 tank battle?

They've got the most accurate weapons in the game and an ESF that's insanely maneuverable but that's not enough. They've actually cried so much they got the lead developer to spend an afternoon in their tank because they just can't compete.

I'll tell ya what, I'll trade you the Prowler and the Carv for the Mag and the Orion any day of the week. Cry to Higby about that.

I'm convinced the VS won't be happy unless the Mag can go everywhere and be virtually unhittable by the other two factions.

Hell, just make it fly. Maybe that will shut them up.

Seeing as you just attacked every VS player for no reason at all, i'll return the favour.

Your K/D ratio makes everything you say regarding game mechanics completely moot.

Good day, Sir.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrR4drWaDvs

Now, can a Vanguard or Prowler do any of that pre-GU2 or post-GU2?

This video shows EXACTLY what people are talking about when they say the Magriders dominance was mostly up to people playing stupidly.

Every single tank he kills, no attempts to angle their armor toward him, just sitting their with their turret turned taking it in the side and back.

That video doesn't in any way showcase an overpowered magrider, it showcases idiotic opponents.