Nanite Ned and taking Emergent Gameplay Just a Tad Too Far

[Catfart]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Specialization was better in PS 1 cos you could customize your loadouts.

example....

I could hop into a tank as 'engineer' but instead of a gun just carry a repairing device. the rest of my inventory could be filled with 11 mines(or c4/mobile turrets ....combat engineering devices)
Then in my tank i could open the boot and put lots of repairing canisters in aswell as more mines etc.. customized to my needs.

You could do this with whateva playstyle you liked which was awesome.

Interesting. I would not concider that specialition at all. That's just having a bigger inventory so you carry more of the stuff you like to use. I can see why you would want it.

To me specialisation is where you have the ability to make a decision that give you or improves an ability at the expense of perminantly reducing your functionality in another area. PS2 allows me to specialise in claymore mines. I cant decide tomorrow that I'm bored with mines and load up with extra ammo instead. I would like the ability to carry more mines, and of course I could spend certs to gain another ability, but once I've specialised in an area, I cant change it. If I could, it would not be specialising.

Just goes to show how careful you have to be with words I suppose. Like using Meta when you mean Strategic.

[SturmovikDrakon]

I agree about the world of PS2 having no character.

I honestly think the combination of these small things like vehicle animations, emotes, music and even armour advancement made the world feel fleshed out and alive. PS2 just feels like it's set up to be a playground, and not a believable world like SOE tried to make it be. Sanctuaries felt like actual military holdouts. Can you honestly say the same of PS2 Warpgates? It looks gamey

I absolutely agree about the music. The PS2 ST gives character to the factions. Unfortunately, they forgot about the world itself. Don's violin gave it that character.They should- no, need to bring back some of the athmoshperic music that made the world feel alive

I always link this piece, but god damn is it good


They fleshed out the factions but forgot about the world

In regards to armour upgrades, having your armour colours visibly changed at least added some sort of visual command structure to the game. Can you honestly tell high BR players ("officers") apart from the newbies in PS2? Nope, and who looks at infantry decals?

I even made a picture comparison of how it could have worked in PS2 based on alpha screens



They don't even need to do armour upgrades, but all armour should be coloured according to your BR

I'm not sure about NPCs, though. They could place some at the Warpgates, moving equipment and all

Planetside 2 is a good game. But it's missing these small touches that they first had

[QuantumMechanic]

It took me quite a while to realize this, or maybe I just didn't want to admit it was true. But Planetside and Planetside 2 are on the surface similar games. And that's where the similarities end.

Given that SOE is saying they want to add to this game over the next 10 years, all the ideas listed could certainly be implemented. But the question is, does SOE even want to? Does it fit in with their vision of the game?

I'm not going to get into what I think SOE's vision for the game is. But I don't think that things like immersion and RPG elements were given any decent thought during the game's early design meetings. Actually I'm pretty confident they weren't considered at all, because I remember that when we first found out there weren't any vehicle enter/exit animations in Planetside 2 and asked why, Higby's answer was essentially "it didn't occur to us that it was that important" (paraphrasing).

[Tatwi]

Repy-a-thon!

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

I agree. Encouraging people to specialise through things they can only access by doing so would be a much better way of getting people to specialise than forcing them to.

Totally. If the classes were like they are now, people would start the game as generalists, which is a perfect way for people to really get a feeling for what they enjoy doing in the game. Then later on a player could evaluate the worth of having access to X Class that they seldom use rather than more cool stuff Y Class, which they use all the time.

"Options are awesome", I always say.

Originally Posted by Koadster

Didnt play PS1. But I really agree with the cert specs, it bugs me that I can drop thousands of certs into my medic to make him effective but a BR1 medic can drop in and rez/heal people just like me, obviously not as well but it really removes any depth to classes or becoming a specialist in that role. There is no "Hey player X we need you for this spec op mission coz we know your a good medic" its just "Random player in squad change to medic to help with the mission"

Yes, absolutely! This exactly what I mean when I say that the game makes it difficult to observe and appreciate individual contributions, thus it makes it almost impossible to build a "character" in the story of PS2. Actions are far too anonymous for them to build a story or even a memory in most cases.

As an example, I remember exactly two "characters" that I have encountered through actual game play, MayorFasi and General... something I can't remember, but I know him from Orders chat and being a "pickup" in his platoon. Granted, I tend to play without a squad most of the time, due to the sad fact the game crashes or slows to a crawl too frequently for me to be relied upon. Also, I spent so many years doing tech support over the telephone that I loathe the sound of the human voice, so I have VOIP off most times, which is a no-no when squading (also makes the game run better with it off btw);

Hey speaking of VOIP in PS2, wow is this ever "AngryVOIPUserside 2" no matter where ya go!

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

Although too late to do now, I think what would've been interesting for the specialisation aspect (without unnecessarily limiting people) would've been to have separate XP/cert pools for everything rather than one general pool.

Meaning a seperate XP/cert pool for each class and each vehicle. You use a class/vehicle a lot, you get XP/certs for that thing - and the more you use it, the more things you get for it, and the more you specialise in that through just playing it a bunch. Obviously some things would still be universal, like universal class certs (or something like the Flash), where you could just spend certs from any class/vehicle on them, or weapons that carry over to other classes where you buy it with one class' certs and get it with the other class(es).

That would've given more of a specialisation feel to the game without really changing how the game works from what we have now, as such. Plus you would have the interesting aspect of people having an overall battle rank, as well as ranks in individual classes or vehicles. If you were to look up someone with battle rank 40, and they were, say, a rank 10 Medic, rank 18 Engie and had rank 26 in the Reaver (to pull random numbers out of my butt), you'd immediately know where they'd specialised.

I like that concept as well. It's not "too complicated" and is actually quite intuitive.

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

Not only do I see amazing ideas in this thread, but I also see a potentially whole enw and different game. As it is obviously too late to add all of this stuff in, it would be much easier to just make a new game entirely. They could even pull all of this off to the side to make a "Planetside 3" down the road and have it F2P but have a lot of the stuff member-only accessible, like member-only continents, vehicles, weapons, classes, vehicles, etc.

The potential for this game is being wasted. I do agree with that. BUT, the game itself is amazing already. You just have to look at it from a general player's point of view. Like such:

"Oh hey look, a new FPS. I wonder what it entails. Woah, 100s of players on a single map? Each capture point the size of a few CoD or Halo maps? More than just a few vehicles! Holy shit this game looks amazing! Plus more than one continent to boot? Ermahgerd I want to play this game! AND it's F2P!! Amazing! I can't wait to tell my bros about this! It's like an FPS and MMORPG hi-bred game! I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before."

You have to look at it from this standpoint, because right now, that'sthe way SOE is looking at it. If it was P2P, then they would look at it from our point of view, the avid gamer point of view. So if PS2 doesn't gor P2P, then they will continue to ignore most of our statements in this forum and continue to do their own thing until they don't feel like it anymore. I hate to say it, but this is what's going to happen. It's sad really, that such a game like this would go to waste. I would really love to see more adeed to this game. Such as NPCs, more advanced cert treesm more class and empire diversity, etc. Albeit, I love this game. They have successfully created another FPS-MMORPG hi-bred game, and are making shit tons of money off of it.

Edit: Grammar.

Thanks for the compliment! You too have some great ideas and observations!

I have to say though, it would be stupid if SOE looked at the game from any perspective other than that of making a game that is going to "move people" enough to make THIS GAME their long term hobby. There are simply way too many games (and other pass times) out there for SOE to rest on the laurels of, "Oh hey look, a new FPS. I wonder what it entails. Woah, 100s of players on a single map? Each capture point the size of a few CoD or Halo maps? More than just a few vehicles! Holy shit this game looks amazing! Plus more than one continent to boot? Ermahgerd I want to play this game! AND it's F2P!! Amazing!", because that honeymoon period is short. Too short. Once the newness wears off, it's "see ya PS2, I'm going to go play the next big thing"...

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Npc animals would be cool. Random npc events would be fun as well. Maybe ps2 can start to borrow assets designed for eqnext, if it is just animated deer and rabbits using the forgelight engine.

My thoughts exactly. Animals could be identical and the animation, rigging, models, and AI for humans could be used directly.

Originally Posted by SturmovikDrakon

I agree about the world of PS2 having no character.

I honestly think the combination of these small things like vehicle animations, emotes, music and even armour advancement made the world feel fleshed out and alive. PS2 just feels like it's set up to be a playground, and not a believable world like SOE tried to make it be. Sanctuaries felt like actual military holdouts. Can you honestly say the same of PS2 Warpgates? It looks gamey

I absolutely agree about the music. The PS2 ST gives character to the factions. Unfortunately, they forgot about the world itself. Don's violin gave it that character.They should- no, need to bring back some of the athmoshperic music that made the world feel alive

I always link this piece, but god damn is it good


They fleshed out the factions but forgot about the world

In regards to armour upgrades, having your armour colours visibly changed at least added some sort of visual command structure to the game. Can you honestly tell high BR players ("officers") apart from the newbies in PS2? Nope, and who looks at infantry decals?

I even made a picture comparison of how it could have worked in PS2 based on alpha screens

They don't even need to do armour upgrades, but all armour should be coloured according to your BR

I'm not sure about NPCs, though. They could place some at the Warpgates, moving equipment and all

Planetside 2 is a good game. But it's missing these small touches that they first had

Don has a lot of the music on his site here,

http://www.donferronemusic.com/index.php?s=listen

Thank you for putting the music and pictures here. They do help illustrate the "character" of PS1.

Originally Posted by QuantumMechanic

It took me quite a while to realize this, or maybe I just didn't want to admit it was true. But Planetside and Planetside 2 are on the surface similar games. And that's where the similarities end.

Given that SOE is saying they want to add to this game over the next 10 years, all the ideas listed could certainly be implemented. But the question is, does SOE even want to? Does it fit in with their vision of the game?

I'm not going to get into what I think SOE's vision for the game is. But I don't think that things like immersion and RPG elements were given any decent thought during the game's early design meetings. Actually I'm pretty confident they weren't considered at all, because I remember that when we first found out there weren't any vehicle enter/exit animations in Planetside 2 and asked why, Higby's answer was essentially "it didn't occur to us that it was that important" (paraphrasing).

It's obvious that this game was designed by COD/Battlefield lovers rather the seasoned MMO folks at SOE. Anyone who worked on EQ, EQ2, or SWG would have a much deeper understanding of not just "rpg elements", but the community building gameplay systems that MMOs require in order to foster strong, lasting communities (of recurring paying customers). There are a lot of systems from Star Wars Galaxies that I could list as examples, but you see, listing them is missing the point entirely. The real magic lies within the realization that all of these little "systems" were designed to encourage players to interact with each other simply by virtue of playing the game they way they personally enjoy. The things people did in SWG intertwined in such a way that the game built bonds and feelings and memories that are, ten years later even after the closure of the game, creating conversations, interactions, and friendships in many places online.

That's why, WAY back in 2011 when PS2 was still referred to as PS Next, I suggested that SOE hire Raph Koster as a consultant for the game, because his expertise are in building community driven games. Raph understands group psychology and how social forces interact with gameplay systems. It's what he does and I think his input would have been invaluable; I highly doubt that his ideas would have changed the over arching concept of the game. Instead, being a professional, he would have answered the question of, "what does SOE need to do in within the bounds of their game design to ensure that positive community building interactions will permeate the gameplay?".

Unfortunately it appears that SOE didn't answer (or perhaps did not even think to ask themselves) questions like these and the result is they simply made a half assed guild system, a featureless friends system, and a bunch of VOIP channels thinking that's all that is required to build a strong community.

Completely and totally wrong, which is why I say that PS2 needs more Dave Georgeson. Dave is a SOE staffer (As in, the person in charge of the entire Everquest franchise) who has a hell of a lot experience in building games that have strong community building gameplay systems. Had SOE put Dave and Tony Tyson (from SWG/DCUO) together with Raph at the beginning of PS2, there is no way in hell that PS2 would have launched with new players dropping podding into the game as part of some random squad of equally confused newcomers. None. None at all. Why? Because these folks know that the game (not some website or social network) needs to build community bonds through the simple act of playing the god damned game.[/I]

This topic makes me grumpy, because it's a missed opportunity for no good reason at all. And it's the same concern as what you said, Quantum, about the PS2 devs having their own vision for the game, regardless of how much said vision may be lacking in the "magic soup" required for success. Case in point, they were staunchly against dropping the Galaxy AMS and creating a Sunderer AMS during beta, but they finally gave into our demand that they at least try the damned Sunderer AMS. Low and behold, it ended up being as successful as people said it would be. That was a really hard fought battle between SOE and the community, simply because SOE had their own narrow vision of how the game will be played, let alone how SOE wanted to make the game.

Planetside 2 is not bad game, but is a game that generates absolutely zero emotional impact beyond the moment of battle. How do we know this? Dwindling pops, perpetual "crown fights", and the majority youtube videos about PS2 are kill shot montages rather than memoirs about "fun times with my outfit".

You have got to fix this Smed, before the PS1/PSU communities/players give up on trying to build their "characters" and communities within the "story" of Planetside 2. Without these players acting as vortices holding groups of new Planetside franchise players together, this game would already have died. You missed the "community building gameplay systems" aspect of the game by that large of a margin. And that's fine, mistakes happen despite the best of intentions. But Smed, you have to take this seriously and put your brightest intellectual assets on the job, at the very least as consultants.

While this may seem to be a "doom and gloom" post, it's actually entirely the opposite - I am enthusiastically optimistic that Planetside 2 will be a real genre changer, a super success, provided Smed puts his most experienced and talented employees on the job before PS2 ends up being an "also ran" product.

Ps. I think it's a safe bet that hiring Raph Koster as a consultant would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than paying Blur to make a CGI trailer.

[Climhazzard]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Specialization was better in PS 1 cos you could customize your loadouts.

That's not actually specialization, though; it's, well... customization.

I suspect that most characters in the original game actually weren't very specialized. If you were primarily infantry, you had your Heavy Assault weapon, a rock launcher, a repair tool, and a healing tool. Some people swapped out the HA weapon for a Thumper or maybe a Sweeper, but a repair tool and healing tool became pretty standard.

[Tatwi]

Originally Posted by Climhazzard

That's not actually specialization, though; it's, well... customization.

I suspect that most characters in the original game actually weren't very specialized. If you were primarily infantry, you had your Heavy Assault weapon, a rock launcher, a repair tool, and a healing tool. Some people swapped out the HA weapon for a Thumper or maybe a Sweeper, but a repair tool and healing tool became pretty standard.

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by Climhazzard

That's not actually specialization, though; it's, well... customization.

I suspect that most characters in the original game actually weren't very specialized. If you were primarily infantry, you had your Heavy Assault weapon, a rock launcher, a repair tool, and a healing tool. Some people swapped out the HA weapon for a Thumper or maybe a Sweeper, but a repair tool and healing tool became pretty standard.

Its interesting that you pretty much described the heavy class in PS 2 and out on the field, most infantry players seem to play heavy in this too. Swap repair gun with shield/recharger and med tool with medkits and bam. The only difference is p shield has become 'acceptable'.

[Baneblade]

PS1 encouraged specialization up till about BR 10, after that you were becoming less special and more like everyone else. BR 21+ really ruined it though.

I think SOE is milking the cash cow with PS2. They don't see a long term thing here. I'll be surprised if they are as hot about PS2 in two or more years, about which time is their cue to totally ruin the game by introducing BFRs again.

[PredatorFour]

If they release them 'mother ship' things they showed pictures off...They will be the new 'bfr' in planetside 2.

[ShadetheDruid]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Its interesting that you pretty much described the heavy class in PS 2 and out on the field, most infantry players seem to play heavy in this too. Swap repair gun with shield/recharger and med tool with medkits and bam. The only difference is p shield has become 'acceptable'.

A lot of people play HA because it's the baseline soldier; it's what makes up the bulk of the assault force, because that's what it's designed to be/do. And medtool =/= medkits, for the simple reason that PS2 medkits can never outdo what a PS2 Medic can provide. A HA with medkits is a little more self sufficient than they otherwise would be, but they still can't do without medics.

It's really not the same thing.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

If they release them 'mother ship' things they showed pictures off...They will be the new 'bfr' in planetside 2.

If they do the flying carriers like a classic sailing frigate then they could definitely avoid creating a game breaking unit. What I mean by this is the main guns should be lined up on the sides of the boat so that we can have fun ship to ship combat. The range on those big guns should be really limited as well so that the bastion cant stand off of a target and pummel it with all of its guns without taking massive amounts of damage. If it were me I would make the bastions cannons only work out to 100 meters. This is what Im hoping for when this finally comes out.

[Carbon Copied]

While I know what is being said about the lack of "feel" in the bases and things like scientists and people ducking into hall ways etc. I think that's something that belongs in a single player game and is an unnecessary distraction in a game like PS2 (and probably a huge resource on processing?) - however that's not to say there shouldn't be scripted eye candy however it needs to be a more "simple" lines of;

Tech Labs: assembly lines piecing together weapons or even common pool vehicles (to keep the change over and entities generic) or empire specific that the controlling faction uses behind glass: not in the main play area but out of the way.

Bio-labs: creatures behind glass/tanks of "things", vials and containers with fluid in and other weird coloured "stuff", computer screens with bio read outs.

Out posts: radar dishes that re-align with the controlling faction's warp gate or maybe have idle chatter on the radio waves thats on the ambient sound loop while in bases).

When I say "simple" I'm not a developer and I don't know what resources are needed for these kind of entities but to me it seems a more simple solution than npcs walking about/ducking etc. however if the faction sanctuarys make a return into the game (which I hope they do) then I think it'd be good to have the NPC element there, I just don't think they have a place in PS2's contested world. I think what I would sort of envision is something close to Huxley the Dystopia's "faction hubs" where the RPG element came into effect and then you deploy to the FOB warp gate from there.

Biggest one for me thats already been mentioned is music - like said the music in there establishes the faction's identity to a degree but continents themselves feel abit devoid of personality for example the NC "travel theme" doesn't fit going over the ice caps on Esamir to me personally. First thing I did was turn the music off and put my own sounds together; everyone has their own take on what it should sound like but for me things like Mooze, Sunshine soundtrack, tracks from the game Capsized, Shattered Horizon, Deus Ex are what I associate as part of my PS2 soundtrack.

[artifice]

Originally Posted by Carbon Copied

While I know what is being said about the lack of "feel" in the bases and things like scientists and people ducking into hall ways etc. I think that's something that belongs in a single player game and is an unnecessary distraction in a game like PS2 (and probably a huge resource on processing?) - however that's not to say there shouldn't be scripted eye candy however it needs to be a more "simple" lines of;

Tech Labs: assembly lines piecing together weapons or even common pool vehicles (to keep the change over and entities generic) or empire specific that the controlling faction uses behind glass: not in the main play area but out of the way.

Bio-labs: creatures behind glass/tanks of "things", vials and containers with fluid in and other weird coloured "stuff", computer screens with bio read outs.

Out posts: radar dishes that re-align with the controlling faction's warp gate or maybe have idle chatter on the radio waves thats on the ambient sound loop while in bases).

When I say "simple" I'm not a developer and I don't know what resources are needed for these kind of entities but to me it seems a more simple solution than npcs walking about/ducking etc. however if the faction sanctuarys make a return into the game (which I hope they do) then I think it'd be good to have the NPC element there, I just don't think they have a place in PS2's contested world. I think what I would sort of envision is something close to Huxley the Dystopia's "faction hubs" where the RPG element came into effect and then you deploy to the FOB warp gate from there.

Biggest one for me thats already been mentioned is music - like said the music in there establishes the faction's identity to a degree but continents themselves feel abit devoid of personality for example the NC "travel theme" doesn't fit going over the ice caps on Esamir to me personally. First thing I did was turn the music off and put my own sounds together; everyone has their own take on what it should sound like but for me things like Mooze, Sunshine soundtrack, tracks from the game Capsized, Shattered Horizon, Deus Ex are what I associate as part of my PS2 soundtrack.

I do like your ideas.