Advanced Units - Page 2

Neutral Calypso · 2013-04-03, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

NO.

Q F T.

Quoted For Truth.

Sirisian · 2013-04-03, 08:57 PM

You might be seeing some issues with this as you're proposing direct vertical upgrades over time rather than more choices. Without going into a long speech the idea of deep specialization has been brought up in a balanced way utilizing a resource system. Read this. Essentially it's the implementation for a resource and progression system with the same certification system but with resource costs attached to each certification which allows players to use resources for vertical upgrades and to unlock vertical upgrades for stock classes and vehicles. This forces players to specialize for their role with weapons, attachments, ammo, utilities, suit upgrades, implants, and many more features with the ability to min-max their specialization at the cost of resources.

Palerion · 2013-04-03, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Haro

If I may add on my idea to yours, rather than having upgrades, which we honestly get through certs right now, I'd rather see upgraded specialized classes, like an that couldmengineer could trade turrets and ammo for drones that he can deploy or control, or infiltrators that sacrifice a primary weapon for more powerful invisibility, or becoming a true spotter that can mark specific targets for aircraft or other vehicles. I think part of the reason a lot of people feel that this game is shallower than the original is because of a lack of support roles to flesh out gameplay.

Actually guys, he has a really good point.

Global Agenda does something like this. It allows players to spec out their class through a skill tree the way they want to play it and has separate equipment for each class depending on their playstyle. Personally I played the robotics class, but there were two different robotics playstyles available: Drone (or, drobo) for those who want to play aggressively, getting in peoples faces and dropping little AI of death in front of them, and turret. Obviously, turret robotics set up "nests" with turrets, healing stations, etc.

So, really, if we would add more equipment to classes in order to support different playstyles, we could allow people to specialize in different areas of each class. This would simply be due to the fact that, from an economic standpoint, having the equipment to support all playstyles available to the class would be difficult, so logically, you would focus on the playstyle that suits you best and continue investing into it.

Obstruction · 2013-04-03, 10:41 PM

this isn't the place to feel special.

you can get that someplace else. like your birthday party. or call your mom or something. you'll always be her special angel.

Palerion · 2013-04-03, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Obstruction

this isn't the place to feel special.

you can get that someplace else. like your birthday party. or call your mom or something. you'll always be her special angel.

Care to make a post in which you don't sound like a 2-year-old making a sorry attempt to offend someone?

exohkay · 2013-04-04, 12:49 AM

I reckon a certain type of camo or vehicle fins or something may be cool, i.e can only buy them at a certain BR or with a certain amount of Certs to buy or w/e.

If you were serious, i'd rather see a tradeoff - i.e Commandoes get 10% less in a clip but 5% increased ROF for TR, 10% less in a clip but 5% more velocity for VS and 10% less in a clip but 5% more damage for NC or w/e.

Tanks might get 10% less armour but 5% more speed or something.

You want it to be pretty small but have a tradeoff.

Ghodere · 2013-04-04, 01:34 AM

Could use this to implement PS1's certs; in that, you can have somewhere between 1-3 alterations active, which will make the class/vehicle of your choice more specialized (and, perhaps, more powerful overall), and can swap one out once every few hours/days. These alterations are gained slowly as your battle rank increases, but can also be purchased instantly for cash. You could have a few choices in terms of sidegrade path, with those other than the default, of course, costing 1000/700.

As an example, a dedicated transport galaxy, with 23-47 seats but no weapons, could be the default Galaxy alteration, and a dedicated gunship could be another option, costing 1000 certs/700 SC, and removing the passenger seats and safe ejection system in favor of heavier weapons; could even split this up into an anti-air gunship and anti-ground gunship. Or, for MBTs, a specialized anti-armor loadout, with no options for anti-infantry weapons, and the other way around for an AV loadout.

This might allow people to, indeed, specialize, meaning, give one thing up in favor of another (in terms of both opportunity cost and versatility.)

Rothnang · 2013-04-04, 02:37 AM

I wouldn't mind if there was an additional specialization system that worked along the lines of a talent tree or perk system that allows you to define the way you play a bit more sharply with mutually exclusive choices. Changing the cert system to be like PS1 at this junction would be kind of bad, especially when you consider that the diminishing returns on high end certs are still in place, so there would be even less of an incentive to actually get those if your overall certs are limited. A system of multiple choices where you can't have everything would be good though, it would have to be some kind of alternate advancement though. I'd like it if there was a perk tree where you can buy little upgrades here or there as you go up in battlerank.

A tiered system is useful because it lets you progress in a direction more meaningfully. Currently everything that's hard to get is on diminishing returns, like 2 more bullets for your tankbuster for 1000 certs. (I'll never understand why it couldn't at least be 3 so you get a nice clean 45 in there instead of 44)

I don't need anything that's insanely powerful, just something that really makes the long haul worth it. The game currently actively discourages you from pursuing top tier perks with diminishing returns. Longer advancement gives the game more long term appeal. Currently the thing is, when you hit around 25% unlocked on any vehicle or infantry class there is just no good reason to keep going. Either you're looking at 1000 cert buys that only give maybe a 1-2% improvement to a single stat, or you're looking at a ton of alternate equipment that you have no use for, because you already have your favorite setup.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with making it take long to get to the top, and having a reward waiting for you there. New players aren't discouraged by a long road ahead, old players are discouraged by reaching the end too quickly.

Figment · 2013-04-04, 04:00 AM

The stupidity here is that we already have a tiered system, with direct upgrades: just look at the suits and armour upgrades. And it is worthless to make you feel special. They tried putting this same stuff in a prerequesit way, which made you spend more certs on a weapon for instance as you were forced to first get stuff you wouldn't use.

They dropped that system very fast after implementing it. Main reason being you would be able to play as you wish.

The system described here is suggested out of personal interest to gain direct combat advantages over others. That is a lot worse. The problem with the OP type ideas is that they just want more, instead of specialization. He doesn't want that at all, he just wants more power.

Specialization would mean you would be able to do something others cannot even remotely do, but to do this you would give up something else, otherwise you are just a generalist that is better at a lot of things than others. That people don't realise this is just saddening and shows how little forethought is put into analyses and how shortsighted and egocentric people think.

Juryrig · 2013-04-04, 04:31 AM

How about a vertical upgrade which, when unlocked, then locks you out of the ability to play any other class?

So if you only ever want to play heavy, you can be a 10% better heavy, but when the situation calls for you to be an infiltrator, or an engie, or a medic....you're screwed.

Fundamentally the problem is that with infinite certs, everyone can eventually unlock everything, which actually makes specialisation impossible.

Rothnang · 2013-04-04, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

The system described here is suggested out of personal interest to gain direct combat advantages over others. That is a lot worse. The problem with the OP type ideas is that they just want more, instead of specialization. He doesn't want that at all, he just wants more power.

Yes, since only the person that suggests something gets to use it this is all part of my master plan to be stronger than everyone else.

Originally Posted by Juryrig

How about a vertical upgrade which, when unlocked, then locks you out of the ability to play any other class?

I don't think that would be a good idea, since you might have certs invested in a lot of different classes already.

However, having to make a choice between multiple options is what really drives specialization. Maybe you could unlock a single advanced unit for every 20 battleranks you have, so a BR 100 character could have 5 different advanced units. There also doesn't have to be just one advanced unit per base unit, there could be a whole range.

Maybe advanced units could also be on the top of a perk tree. Imagine it sort of like Skyrim except instead of skills every unit has a tree. Every battle rank grants a point, which adds a slight improvement along the lines of certs. Then you could still make it a 20 point perk to get an advanced unit of some kind.

Ultimately the game should just offer something for people who really like to play in a certain way over others. It shouldn't simply assume you want to be a jack of all trades, when that's obviously not how everyone plays. It shouldn't punish you harshly for dabbling in everything a bit either though. Versatility needs to have its place just like specialization.

Elgareth · 2013-04-04, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

The system described here is suggested out of personal interest to gain direct combat advantages over others. That is a lot worse. The problem with the OP type ideas is that they just want more, instead of specialization. He doesn't want that at all, he just wants more power.

Specialization would mean you would be able to do something others cannot even remotely do, but to do this you would give up something else, otherwise you are just a generalist that is better at a lot of things than others. That people don't realise this is just saddening and shows how little forethought is put into analyses and how shortsighted and egocentric people think.

I agree.
Just a more powerful class - no.
Ability to specialize - okay.

For example give HA two Options: Tank Buster or Stormtrooper (just brainstorming).
So you'd have the basic HA, or could go Tank Buster, enabling you to use empire specific launchers for example (or lock-ons, generally different, but not vastly more powerful launchers), but cutting your Primary Weapon down to a Pistol. But you'll have more Launcher Ammo as well, and maybe the option to get some Vehicle Radar OR a better Flak Armor. Maybe even grant them ~20% Resistance against Vehicle Damage or something.
The Stormtrooper on the other hand loses its launcher completely, but gains some additional AI abilities. (Nightmare to Balance even on first sight... BioLabs anyone?)

The Infiltrator can go Sniper or... I dunno, Hacker/Cloaker? One losing bullet-drop, faster sniper rifle reloads but losing the cloak, maybe even ability to hack, the other gains a better cloak, can't equip sniper rifles (or just can't equip bolt-actions), can even hack enemy vehicles... Something along those lines...

The problem I see though is: The current classes can do too much too well ATM, to properly implement such options, you'd need to take some abilities away from the basic jack-of-all-trades classes IMHO, making it a huge overhaul of the system.

Originally Posted by Juryrig

How about a vertical upgrade which, when unlocked, then locks you out of the ability to play any other class?

So if you only ever want to play heavy, you can be a 10% better heavy, but when the situation calls for you to be an infiltrator, or an engie, or a medic....you're screwed.

Fundamentally the problem is that with infinite certs, everyone can eventually unlock everything, which actually makes specialisation impossible.

Valid point, as my above example would also have the problem that once everything is certed, you'd go Stormtrooper in Biolabs, and Tank-Buster whenever you face a tank column, effectively granting you an upgrade for each situation.
Maybe (adapting my example), you'd cancel yourself out from one specialization tree once you pick the other one for a day or something. (You can always be basic HA, once you pick Stormtrooper you can't go tankbuster until your last Stormtrooper death was 24h ago)

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I don't think that would be a good idea, since you might have certs invested in a lot of different classes already.

Ultimately the game should just offer something for people who really like to play in a certain way over others. It shouldn't simply assume you want to be a jack of all trades, when that's obviously not how everyone plays. It shouldn't punish you harshly for dabbling in everything a bit either though. Versatility needs to have its place just like specialization.

Somehow these two points contradict each other a bit don't they? Do you want to play all classes, or just one? Or do you want to play all classes, but have one better than the one of others? ;-)

As I see it:
Specialization is cool, BUT you can't just straight upgrade any single unit, making it better than the base class in every way. There have to be downsides as well. So that you CAN be better in some special way, but that also means in this round/life/spawn you also have to be worse at something your base class can do.

Figment · 2013-04-04, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

Yes, since only the person that suggests something gets to use it this is all part of my master plan to be stronger than everyone else.

Making a statement like this means you don't understand at all what you're asking for and what I said about it.

Typical.

1. I said you just want more power. This is true. The question is with respect to who: New players and players who've not unlocked all tiers yet. So yes, you just want more power.

2. Everyone else will eventually be equally strong once more, making your entire plan to make people into specialists fail. If something isn't a long term solution to a problem you've described (no specialists), it's not a solution at all. It's a temporary short term band-aid and the way you've phrased it, it's quite clear it's one that you haven't put any thought into at all.

3. All it does is make this game a time sink, like pretty much every other ridiculously stupidly deliberately unbalanced MMO to cater to weakminded people who just want to feel more powerful instead of actually being more powerful, (ie. rely on tools instead of their skills), instead of creating a fair game where the best player wins, rather than the player with the best tier gear.

Multiplayer games should be fair, or they shouldn't be made in the first place because they're an affront to gaming. Rigging a game in someone's favour because they spent more time or money is simply a policy that's not about proper game design, that's about ripping off people at the expense of others or themselves (the latter is done by exploiting the self-centric nature and ego of people to make them invest more money).

You're just too shortsighted to see it, since you've created this thread out of ego motivations. Not because it's good for the game or other players.

PS: Elgareth gets it a lot better than you Rothnang. And yes, you did contradict yourself: you want specialization, yet at the same time you want people to spend certs on everything. Now what do you want?

Rothnang · 2013-04-04, 06:31 AM

And he comes out swinging... Everyone who likes MMOs with character advancement is a stupid weak minded person!!! Amazing.

To me it sounds like you just don't want anyone's commitment to a certain role or the game in general to pay off in a way they can actually feel. A slight improvement for someone who's been around for a long time and has really committed to a certain unit doesn't make newer players powerless or irrelevant. We're not talking WoW levels here where someone who's 10 levels above you might as well be invulnerable. We're talking bonuses and capabilities not unlike what certs currently provide, but handed out in such a way that it gives people a reason to stick with a certain unit, and a way to be genuinely exceptional at it.

The problem with relying entirely on the players skill is that the range of skills used to be good at any one thing in the game is usually not radically different from just about every other thing. You'll never be able to get a player into such a shape that he's amazing with one vehicle and terrible at another, even if that player wants to be amazing with one vehicle and doesn't care about the other.

Whether you are a medic or an engineer in Planetside 2 is mechanically only distinguished by what you point your little beamy tool at, not by years of training handling complex medical procedures or maintaining machinery. You don't need a different set of skills to repair different types of units as a player. If someone genuinely wants to be recognized as a cut above other medics it's simply not something you can really do by skill alone. The only way you could ever be better at pointing a healing gun at a corpse than at pointing a healing gun at a tank is if somehow somewhere in the game there was an option to pick which healing gun you want to be the one that you are awesome with and which one you want to be the one that you are average with.

Figment · 2013-04-04, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

And he comes out swinging... Everyone who likes MMOs with character advancement is a stupid weak minded person!!! Amazing.

I said multiplayers. It's a poor enough solution for PvE design, but for PvP design it's inexcusable. The only reason they use tiered equipment in those games is to provide replayability without actually having to spend money on developing new challenges as their challenges are the same every time. They replaced actual game content and skill by meaningless grind. That you like meaningless grind is up to you, but that's really just for weakminded people who don't have anything better to do and get satisfaction about being placed in a position of power, feeling they earned it by building it up over time (not realising that building it up is inescapable and therefore not an actual feat), instead of building it time and time again and performing the actual feat of using your brain and reflexes to outwit and outperform your opponents.

Yes, I ridicule people that base their winning potential off of tools.

(That kinda includes rocket podders and other low ttk spam weaponry wielders who go after infantry constantly and then think they're skilled players instead of the game winning for them).

Stop letting your ego talk. There's no upgrades to pawns, bishops, rooks, queens or kings in chess. Yet that game has been and will be around a lot longer than MMOs.

Why? Because they don't do the work for you and everyone playing the game has the same vantage point. You work to gain an upperhand, it's not rewarded to you for making an arbitrary amount of arbitrary moves. Plus, at the end of the engagement, the game is reset so you have to start over to get into that position where you can win.

What you want is that people who played chess for 2 years get more chess pieces, better pawns that can strike at further distances or always can take two steps, rooks that can move in more than diagonal ways, queens that can make horse moves, etc. Meanwhile, your opponent's pieces play under more restricted rules.

Chess pieces are like the classes and units available to you. Since you can have everything, you'll get to a situation where you don't just face one stronger chess piece (which is already unfair), but all your chess pieces combined result in a fastly superior starting position.

You don't think lateral enough to see this. Basically, you wouldn't understand good game design if it'd hit you in the face.

To me it sounds like you just don't want anyone's commitment to a certain role or the game in general to pay off in a way they can actually feel.

I feel satisfaction whenever I outperform someone on an equal level through honest hard work. I want commitment to be rewarded by means of being more skilled to use the tools at everyone's disposal within that role (while not everyone has the role in the first place because they picked other roles), not by getting more tools or more powerful crutches which everyone can get in the end, but till they do provides an unfair advantage. Sounds to me you don't understand the first thing about me and you're just throwing a tantrum because I said your idea sucks big time. As in, is really, really lousy.

Maybe you should try that instead of wanting to be the bully in grammar school by being allowed to be more powerful and beat up the lower levels to make you "feel" more powerful WHILE YOU ARE JUST ACTING LIKE A WHINY SPOILED BRAT WHO THINKS HE IS SO COOL.

Just like any other bully.

A slight improvement for someone who's been around for a long time and has really committed to a certain unit doesn't make newer players powerless or irrelevant.

It trivialises their presence and is rigging the game. Even if they can still win, it's an unfair disposition based on an arbitrary time sink.

Since when is lingering around a reason to be rewarded with default advantages?

Where's that entitlement coming from? Why are you a better person, not player, a better person, than some random other player who spent less time on the game?

Drop the Call of Duty line of design argumentation. It sucks and it's unwelcoming to new players, something any MMO needs: fresh blood. Why do you hate new players? Why are they inferior to you? What did they ever do to you?

Nothing right? You don't hate them, right? You just really love yourself. Stop gloating over your ego. Your time in game means nothing if you still can't beat a new player after two years using the same tools as that new player. It just means you suck and you need some other form of progression to compensate for your ineptitude.

Face it. You're too weak and don't make actual progress in skill, so you need crutches to feel you're making progress to compensate.

We're not talking WoW levels here where someone who's 10 levels above you might as well be invulnerable. We're talking bonuses and capabilities not unlike what certs currently provide, but handed out in such a way that it gives people a reason to stick with a certain unit, and a way to be genuinely exceptional at it.

No we're not talking about what you think we are talking about, because what you propose would never result in sticking with a certain unit.

It just means people continue to for example whore ESF rocketpods and upgrade every other class to a higher standard while at it, because they long since fully upgraded the aircraft things they wanted and now put the certs into something else.

They may never have played medic, but they would get a tier 2 medic LONG BEFORE any dedicated medic player would. And then they'd continue and put it into LA, Infil, HA and Engineer too (probably the ones they play more often first). End result? They'd get everything fully maxed out and they still wouldn't dedicate themselves to those units.

You saying we are just shows how little thought you put in your own ideas and a complete and utter lack of understanding how the game is played and where people get the certs they invest in other things and what they actually need.

Come on Rothnang. Put some hours into an idea before you post it and stop designing for yourself. Because all you're doing is posting what YOU want and at most what a small portion of the longer term players MIGHT want, completely disregarding the needs of other groups of players, like the new people and those that don't exploit the most grindable ways of playing. And please, start realising this sort of thing.