Nerfing the Reverse Manuver - Page 2

Lonehunter · 2013-08-11, 08:29 PM

I think it's very sad they put nerfs in like this. You can't give us tools and limitations to work with to find our own strategies, never once say something is wrong or even poll the people, then make changes to remove it in the name of "balance"

GamerDJ · 2013-08-11, 10:50 PM

As a pilot, I think nerfing this mechanic will greatly impact more experienced pilots, and not for the better. New players will still have to do the exact same thing to do the maneuver, they will have to learn the exact same things to become a good pilot, and when they DO get to this part of their piloting experience, they will only have a harder time learning the maneuver.

Nobody complained about this mechanic (besides just some inexperienced pilots in stock ESFs that get shot down because they flew somewhere they shouldn't have), and it doesn't make any one faction or ESF unbalanced because ALL ESFs can do this exact same maneuver the exact same way and get nearly the exact same outcome. You may be noticing a pattern here: it's that everything is the same with this maneuver and 'balance.'

Even if this change does go through, everything that is the same now will remain the same. It will just be stupidly hard to do the exact same thing, and there is no reason to make things like this harder.

TL/DR: Nerfing this will make things much worse, and the only thing changing will be the difficulty. There is no unbalance, no real complaints, and no good reason to go through with this nerf. Experienced pilots will be the only ones effected, because newer players don't do this type of thing until much later in the game.

CzuukWaterson · 2013-08-11, 11:02 PM

Didn't Higby say that it would still work with the AB pods on? Is that not the case? I like it in that case as it creates more specialization. But not a fan of removing it entirely. It is what makes flying in this game special. And I am not particularly good at doing it. In the end I don't think it will have the desired effect.

NoXousX · 2013-08-11, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by CzuukWaterson

Didn't Higby say that it would still work with the AB pods on? Is that not the case? I like it in that case as it creates more specialization. But not a fan of removing it entirely. It is what makes flying in this game special. And I am not particularly good at doing it. In the end I don't think it will have the desired effect.

Specialization should not be rock/paper/scissors. It should provide a small advantage, not gut the capabilities of other setups.

snafus · 2013-08-12, 12:55 AM

They have to be careful with not relying on fuel tanks to have proper vertical thrust. All aspects of flying the ESF rely on vertical thrust one way or another. A2G especially will be hurt badly by the speed reduction we will receive while in hover. If you force pilots to rely on fuel tanks you will alienate a lot of the A2G pilots out there.

OmegaPREDATOR · 2013-08-12, 04:28 AM

Well I will not copy my old post but to be quick I'm against that nerf.

Somewhere in the Internet you can find a tweet or reddit article of Higby comparing it to the rocket jump of Quake, not wanted but giving depth to the game.

For PS2, imo, the only wait to survive in A2A is mastering the RM. When a newbie start to master it he will survive longuer and start enjoy piloting.

If you can't do the RM you will always be destroy by the opponent behind you. So nerfing it will just supress dogfights and transdorm the A2A in a hit&run rush where the faster may escape (with the buff of noze canons it even harder to run away and Mosies are advantaged).

As I test it on the PTS, the RM is still posible but harder and give you less speed when mastered. So newbies will not be helped cause they will never learn it as it's really hard now to learn. Veterans who already mastered it will have even more advantaged against them.

So yes RM is hard to learn like everything when piloting (how many guyes crash when trying to avoid few shoots...) but nerfing it will not change that and will just remove some depth of piloting.

ps: if the nerf whas asked for answer to the A2G overpowered of ESF, it's not hover who need nerf.

KesTro · 2013-08-12, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by snafus

They have to be careful with not relying on fuel tanks to have proper vertical thrust. All aspects of flying the ESF rely on vertical thrust one way or another. A2G especially will be hurt badly by the speed reduction we will receive while in hover. If you force pilots to rely on fuel tanks you will alienate a lot of the A2G pilots out there.

I would imagine you would see two very distinct types of ESF emerge instead of the "I am everything' that they are today. ESF's cert whoring the ground and ESF's who want to dogfight as they claim so they run AB pods.

Assist · 2013-08-12, 08:14 AM

Anything that nerfs air is a good thing. It outperforms ground gameplay by too large of a margin.

PredatorFour · 2013-08-12, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by KesTro

I would imagine you would see two very distinct types of ESF emerge instead of the "I am everything' that they are today. ESF's cert whoring the ground and ESF's who want to dogfight as they claim so they run AB pods.

I think this will be great. Another factor will be whether they choose ab pods over the new wing weapons too. The esf game needs more variety in combat options imo and it looks like it's on the way. I believe that the good pilots will still rise to the top regardless of these new changes.

Roderick · 2013-08-12, 09:58 AM

If the Devs are changing this now, then it tells me that this was never the vision for air combat and they are just addressing it now. Why was this not corrected before? Irrelevant and moot at this point.

Experienced players will adapt to the changes. Those that have committed to this maneuver all this time will adapt to whatever adjusted style of air combat they choose and continue to be successful at it.

CzuukWaterson · 2013-08-12, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by NoXousX

Specialization should not be rock/paper/scissors. It should provide a small advantage, not gut the capabilities of other setups.

Why should it not be rock/paper/scissors? I'm not following your logic. I think it should be exactly rock/paper/scissors. You should either be pure air superiority with AB, general purpose air support with lock on or ground with rocket pods.

The new empire specific secondaries also seem to provide a general purpose weapon for increased fire power. I see roles here, not nerfs. I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

Originally Posted by Roderick

If the Devs are changing this now, then it tells me that this was never the vision for air combat and they are just addressing it now. Why was this not corrected before? Irrelevant and moot at this point.

Experienced players will adapt to the changes. Those that have committed to this maneuver all this time will adapt to whatever adjusted style of air combat they choose and continue to be successful at it.

Agreed. I suppose I especially like this change because it gives the Reaver an advantage that it was supposed to have all along, superior vertical thrust. The NC really needs something in the air other than good Dalton gunners.

Valkar · 2013-08-12, 10:27 AM

I'm very confused by all of you pilots angry at this change. I fly a lot and I can pull off the RPT in my Scythe and I use it to win me a lot of dogfighting duels but I'm happy to see the end of it because its just not dogfighting not by a long shot.

This move dilutes the air game down to a hover and shoot brawl. There is no tactical flying or no need for wingmen or even squadrons the RPT removes all of that because ESF simply meet eachother RPT hover and shoot at eachother and its boring as hell.

This change will make it easier for new players to get in the air which is also important for the long term health of the game. Claiming this change will make it even more difficult for new pilots is scare mongering at best.

For me the change has already got people in my outfit interested in flying again. People who have trouble mastering the game and admit are mediocre pilots who currently avoid flying because they know they stand little chance in the air with all the G2A lock ons, A2A lock ons, flak and ESF using RPT. Flying simply isnt enjoyable or rewarding.

Sorry but fighter jocks and aces need to lose the attitude. Yes you're great at flying and nobody is questioning your skill but this change (or nerf as you want to refer to it as) is there to open up the air game to new or old pilots who are currently shut out of that aspect of the game completely.

It offends me to see so many pilots whining about it and threatening to leave over it. Sorry but the air shouldn't be ours exclusively, there should be room for novice pilots or people who simply don't have the skill to master a single move. Let them have a chance of killing a top gun because right now all of those people roll with SGs, Bursters or G2A lock ons. This change will get more of them in cockpits giving you more xp and less AA to worry about so try focussing on the positives instead of being a bunch of spoilt entitled brats please.

Rbstr · 2013-08-12, 10:45 AM

I'm not shedding any tears over it.

IDGAF about this new/old/skilled argument. I think that it's a silly unintended consequence of how the VTOL transition works.
And it makes the air game less about tactics and more about whoosing around in a game of attrition.

iRobot · 2013-08-12, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Valkar

This move dilutes the air game down to a hover and shoot brawl. There is no tactical flying or no need for wingmen or even squadrons the RPT removes all of that because ESF simply meet eachother RPT hover and shoot at eachother and its boring as hell.

This change will make it easier for new players to get in the air which is also important for the long term health of the game. Claiming this change will make it even more difficult for new pilots is scare mongering at best.

It offends me to see so many pilots whining about it and threatening to leave over it. Sorry but the air shouldn't be ours exclusively, there should be room for novice pilots or people who simply don't have the skill to master a single move.

I could not agree more! RM is the reason why I avoid dogfights even though I can do it. It is just stupid to hover around each other in slow speeds. Real dogfighting is about speed and agility and trying to outmaneuver the opponent. I'm looking forward to Hossin where RM in the trees should be harder.

Removing RM would make A2G also more linear and promote more tactical ESF squad play imo.

wildcat140679 · 2013-08-12, 12:40 PM

I welcome the change to RPT with open arms, I don't pilot ESF much mostly because ESF aerial combat (both ground and air) feel weird and part of it has to do with the maneuvers that can be done because of RPT. Call me old school, but without RPT, I truly believe flight dynamics would be better and have a more logical feel to it, lowering the learning curve for beginners.