The Oracle of Death - Page 20

EVILPIG · 2013-09-11, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Aarth

Putting this here.

MBT GU14 Data
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...QX3dJZlE#gid=0

Wow, Vanguard HE seems lacking.

Plaqueis · 2013-09-11, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

Wow, Vanguard HE seems lacking.

I doubt it's a performance issue, the difference is just too huge. I guess people just don't use it for some reason, probably cause HEAT and AP seem to do the job just fine.

The thing that strikes (pun intended) me the most is the utter Prowler dominance. Not that i'm surprised.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-11, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Plaqueis

I doubt it's a performance issue, the difference is just too huge. I guess people just don't use it for some reason, probably cause HEAT and AP seem to do the job just fine.

The thing that strikes (pun intended) me the most is the utter Prowler dominance. Not that i'm surprised.

I'm talking about the KPU. Seems Vanguard HE gets far less kills than it's counterparts.

Plaqueis · 2013-09-11, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

I'm talking about the KPU. Seems Vanguard HE gets far less kills than it's counterparts.

Ya i was looking at the total kills for the HE guns. The difference just seems too big to be a performance issue, but if it is, it really needs to be fixed.

Chewy · 2013-09-11, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Plaqueis

Ya i was looking at the total kills for the HE guns. The difference just seems too big to be a performance issue, but if it is, it really needs to be fixed.

I can tell you a very good reason for Vanguards being no where near the KPU of the other tanks.

Prowlers have 2 shots that, although are weaker by their own, add up to much more killing power as a whole. Reload times also get WTF fast when you anchor down. A LOT of shells can be spammed in a short time and that gets a fuckton of infantry kills. Park an ammo sundy next to 1-2 of them and nothing is getting out out in the open.

Magriders are the spiders of PS2. They are fucking everywhere and can kill you when pissed. No mountain or cliff is off limits to them and that lets Magriders get into spots that let them act like artillery. Shelling bases from a distance and at angles where the defenders can't fight back as easy. At those ranges infantry don't have much to fight back with and enemy vehicles have very hard times getting into the same areas for flanking. Magrider Hill (south of the Crown) is named as such for this reason.

Vanguards are big slowish tanks that share if not have the longest relaods. Can't spam shells like the Prowler and can't get into spots the Magrider can. So that means a lot less fights where a Vanguard can get farm and more fights where the Vanguard has to get close to get of LOS on infantry. Getting the strongest direct damage is a boost, though not one Id rather have when overkilling a target does nothing. Better for AV in a fair fight, but shit for AI.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-11, 03:58 PM

Mags and Prowlers are more maneuverable too.

Reithan · 2013-09-11, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Chewy

Better for AV in a fair fight, but shit for AI.

“If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” ― John Steinbeck

Chewy · 2013-09-11, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Reithan

“If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” ― John Steinbeck

Yup, that's why I used those words.

Fair fight is 2 tanks seeing each other at the same time on an even field. That doesn't happen.

If you're at range. Then a Prowler will win easy with raw anchor DPS and the gunner doing repairs if needed. A Magrider will just dodge shells and it's hover lets it fire on the move without worrying about bumping ruining shots like grounded tanks.

If up close. Then it depends on if one has a rear shot or who has things to run into. You can't get but more than one rear shot on a Magrider thinks to it's fixed main gun putting front armor always at target. But for close up Prowler and Vanguard fights, I can't say much as that is where driver skill is most needed and what cert options each have. Im not a tanker and rather use a Lightning for hit n run things if solo or Harasser if teamed.

Also you have to deal with infantry as well as armor in fights. TR have Strikers/Fractures and VS have Lancers/ZOE. It's hard to keep anything NC alive if it's not fast and always on the move.

typhaon · 2013-09-12, 12:46 PM

If a Vanguard can get into that close range where a Magrider's dodging doesn't help and the hit rate on Prowler is 100% - then Vanguard shield will let it win.

In all other situations - namely, farming infantry or mid/long-range vehicle combat... Vanguard is inferior.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-12, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by typhaon

If a Vanguard can get into that close range where a Magrider's dodging doesn't help and the hit rate on Prowler is 100% - then Vanguard shield will let it win.

In all other situations - namely, farming infantry or mid/long-range vehicle combat... Vanguard is inferior.

Mag strafing still helps at close range. It allows a Mag to keep it's front armor at the enemy.

Reithan · 2013-09-12, 01:15 PM

I would say the only situation where the vanguard would be superior is fighting in a bottleneck where dodging isn't possible, or in straight-up blitz combat.

Ex 1: Canyons on amerish/indar where you're all forced into a fairly linear engagement.

Ex 2: You flank/ambush/surprise the enemy while they're travelling/camping/assaulting a point and just blitzs straight into their midst, shields activated and just pummel them.

Neither seems like the kind of thing that will happen often, and neither are 'good' tactics, because both will lose to simple infantry reinforcements.

maradine · 2013-09-12, 01:21 PM

Quick update - had to do a few more schema changes this week, so I wont be collecting new data til Friday. From the look of this week's fun, though, it's probably better I'm not recording.

maradine · 2013-09-16, 03:28 AM

Good evening campers!

Got some quality time with the Oracle this weekend, and I thought you'd like to see what's what.

The boring backend of how the Oracle runs has been refactored and is now more or less finalized. The control channel is boring and verbose, but is actually an interesting insight into the kill velocity of the game. Here, we have the late night PDT, where it takes about a minute for 1000 kills to roll off the line.

The important part in there is that there's now enough performance headroom to run all of the aggregate data regularly without interrupting the flow of kill collection. Basically, every query you guys have ever asked me to do now happens in my sleep once a night. Added bonus: the period time is now exactly 24 hours, so you will be able to compare data pulls to each other from here forward. Here's the big one, with everything that had more than 100 users in the last 24 hours:

How about those Vanu LMGs, eh?

Also, I had to do this one for shits:

Solved? You decide!

This week will be the gravy week - tying all of this into the Oracle's command engine so you can ask her to do stuff yourself. Stay tuned!

ChipMHazard · 2013-09-16, 04:40 AM

At a glance I don't see that anything has changed. Dumbfire are still the most used and the ESRLs are more or less the same as well, even though the Striker's KPU has decreased a bit. Why would TR still not use the Striker over the other lock-ons in the majority of cases?
Too early to really tell though.

MGP · 2013-09-16, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Why would TR still not use the Striker over the other lock-ons in the majority of cases?

Now you can't start reloading Striker while your rockets are in the air. You need to wait for it to hit. This adds extra 3-5 seconds to DPS calculation. I did some math and it seems what Striker got average 161 DPS, while Annihilator got 156. Considering what you don't have to stand in the open, and can cover right after firing, with current mechanics i prefer Annihilator to Striker. 5 extra DPS don't pay up for having to stand almost still for 10 seconds.
And "dedicated" G2G and G2A launchers are now miles ahead of Striker, in terms of both DPS and usability.