Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 24

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 06:57 PM

If the game records and displays deaths, even if I'm the only one that sees them, I will work toward eliminating deaths. I'm not entirely sure why, but I will feel compelled to do so and it most certainly will be at the expense of teamplay at times. And even worse, sometimes I'll want to mess around or try something new but will feel like I shouldn't, which is a shame.

I hope they don't have death stats. It makes the game more fun and helps newer or less skilled players not feel awful about their stats. Starcraft 2 actually removed losses from any player not in the highest leagues and I think it's one of the smartest things they could have done to encourage laddering and to make it less stressful and more enjoyable.

Either way I'll still hate dying, but if they make each individual death a permanent blemish to my stats then I will adjust my play accordingly and play more selfish. Maybe it's stupid but it's true. If the game wants me to not care about deaths then the game had better not give me a reason to do so.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-22, 06:57 PM

Enclave emphasises good points, I must admit. I think, ultimately, elimination of most stats would probably be beneficial (it would be interesting to see someone try it, just to see how it worked out). An interesting social experiment, and it's true that what's waved in their face as "important" is what they'll tend to think is important.

I doubt they will ever implement such things, however. They said explicitly too many times they want the CoD kiddies, etc, and they will be greatly dissatisfied without their stats, on average.

We'll see, though.

sylphaen · 2012-07-22, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Buggsy

My own personal progress is, "Am I having fun?"

I'd agree that fun is what makes the interest of a game but check out the old "Planetside needs an eng-game condition" threads... Fun is not enough for most anymore.

IMO, BuzzCut has it right that K/min would be a much better solution for killwhores to compare who does his job best. And to be really hardcore, I would even add K/min/average-resources-used-per-spawn.

The guy who kills the most guys in the least time with the least resources should get a medal. Dying slows you down so it's a given that Deaths are implicitly included in such a stat.

Of course, this would only be a killwhore prime stat but nothing a support player should care about: that would be "score".

Drakkonan · 2012-07-22, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by BuzzCutPsycho

Stats Promoted by the game prime player behavior

Recommendation

Deaths as a stat need to be gutted from the game. It is a negative thing that discourages risk taking; just get rid of it. With it goes K/D, and in its place a universal developer-controlled stat can exist.

The best stat to promote is Score/Minute. The /minute part factors in playtime so casual players and hardcore players are on relatively equal footing in terms of making the leader-board. It becomes a fair comparison. It also becomes a measure of efficiency; simply playing a lot and racking up score isn't enough to dominate a leader-board. Players should be encouraged to be productive which is precisely what score/min achieves.

Please understand the power that stats have on player behavior. It isn't simply information; it influences the way the game is played. Don't blindly follow tradition and squander an opportunity to set the tone and influence player behavior in PlanetSide 2.

/minute was the worst thing to happen to Battlefield. It can be argued a relevent stat in a round-based game like Battlefield, but I shouldn't have to explain why it goes against all that Planetside was, and Planetside 2 should be. I'd rather they keep deaths as a stat then add a time factor.

I feel I'm reiterating myself, but the solution is simple:
-Allow players to hide their stats from the public/outfit/friends/all
-Get rid of the death stat completely
-Add a stat incorporating support points

If we're gong to have stats, a medic who only heals and revives and has a KDR or 0 should have stats that show that he's actually an effective player despite having 9000 deaths and no kills. Granted, this is an extreme case, but they're (Higby) all about "play the game the way you want". Well, the way stats are right now prevent this type of play style from being relevant.

moosepoop · 2012-07-22, 07:05 PM

we can just remove the death count and keep the kill count. and for support class use a support score system.

avpmaster · 2012-07-22, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

we can just remove the death count and keep the kill count. and for support class use a support score system.

nice bump + restatement of what op said

**Malorn** · 2012-07-22, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

If the game records and displays deaths, even if I'm the only one that sees them, I will work toward eliminating deaths. I'm not entirely sure why, but I will feel compelled to do so and it most certainly will be at the expense of teamplay at times. And even worse, sometimes I'll want to mess around or try something new but will feel like I shouldn't, which is a shame.

I hope they don't have death stats. It makes the game more fun and helps newer or less skilled players not feel awful about their stats. Starcraft 2 actually removed losses from any player not in the highest leagues and I think it's one of the smartest things they could have done to encourage laddering and to make it less stressful and more enjoyable.

Either way I'll still hate dying, but if they make each individual death a permanent blemish to my stats then I will adjust my play accordingly and play more selfish. Maybe it's stupid but it's true. If the game wants me to not care about deaths then the game had better not give me a reason to do so.

This is a good illustration of the priming that Buzz talked about. It's subconscious, and it permeates many aspects of gaming without you necessarily being aware of it. It's there, it's regarded as important, and therefore there is a compulsion to reduce it at the expense of other activities.

Its mere presence is destructive.

Blackwolf · 2012-07-22, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is a good illustration of the priming that Buzz talked about. It's subconscious, and it permeates many aspects of gaming without you necessarily being aware of it. It's there, it's regarded as important, and therefore there is a compulsion to reduce it at the expense of other activities.

Its mere presence is destructive.

I thought that might be the case, but tbh the K/D never stopped me from doing what was best for squad/team/empire. I revived people in mid firefight, dropped gens, killed spawns, and generally followed outfit orders without hesitation. I paid attention to it of course, but it helped me determine how well my head was in the game and how well I did before I signed out.

Yes the K/D stats encouraged farming and kill whores, and created a false sense of skill to boot (how hard is it to rack up kills bombing for a liberator?), but it also encouraged self preservation and a need to improve yourself as a player as well as a team member.

I don't think score would be a better solution. You might as well try and find a better system to replace the economy, because that's exactly the scale of a task you are facing here. Anything you replace currency with will develop the same standard habits of attempting to get more of what you need and less of what you don't need. And this will always create situations where people can and will "farm" whatever they need large quantities of.

Regardless of the system you put in, people will attempt to exploit it. Better to keep a simple system in like the one PS1 had that encouraged improved use of specific elements of the game (engineering and medic as well as ways to kill the enemy). Making more difficult goals will make the system more fun to improve and interact with, but will still encourage the same lame tricks and tactics.

And the largest contributor to spawn camping and generator avoidance were the morons who wanted "a good fight" and didn't want it "ruined" by jerks who used good tactics to end a situation in victory rather then potential defeat.

Envenom · 2012-07-22, 07:23 PM

I absolutely love stat tracking and K/D, so speak for yourself.

moosepoop · 2012-07-22, 07:25 PM

in small scale fps the psychological effects from k/d isnt that big, but planetside requires coordination, and sometimes sacrifice. if different squads and platoons cannot effectively coordinate then there is no strategy and tactics, and the quality of gameplay will suffer.

lots of times in ps1 indoor fights people are literally paralyzed, hiding in third person mode behind walls because they did not want to lower their k/d, and the two sides just stay behind doors in a stalemate.

in ps1, k/d fetish causes people to go lone wolf sniping, tanks and aircraft leave the battle hunting lone infantry, etc.

Slide Surveyor · 2012-07-22, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Envenom

I absolutely love stat tracking and K/D, so speak for yourself.

Stat tracking is fine, but death tracking just isn't meant for a game like this.

Rivenshield · 2012-07-22, 07:30 PM

I like having *access* to stats. I'm always curious about how well I did or how well my empire did, the staggering number of times that I've died, etc. I dislike having them shoved into my face and having them made the focus of gameplay -- the whole idea of XP bonuses for killstreaks, for instance.

Those features belong in tournament-style games. They're a SUBSTITUTE for persistence. I want the people around me to be thinking about the objective, and it shouldn't be their goddam K/D ratio.

Blackwolf · 2012-07-22, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

in small scale fps the psychological effects from k/d isnt that big, but planetside requires coordination, and sometimes sacrifice. if different squads and platoons cannot effectively coordinate then there is no strategy and tactics, and the quality of gameplay will suffer.

lots of times in ps1 indoor fights people are literally paralyzed, hiding in third person mode behind walls because they did not want to lower their k/d, and the two sides just stay behind doors in a stalemate.

in ps1, k/d fetish causes people to go lone wolf sniping, tanks and aircraft leave the battle hunting lone infantry, etc.

I have never seen this happen. And you are removing the players right to make those kinds of choices of their own accord. And it's a game, there will always be yahoos charging blindly into the fray with nary a care in the world. Did I use that word right?

No matter what you do or how you do it, self preservation will be there to some degree or another. No one wants to die even in a game, and removing that death counter won't change this mentality at all. Having it gives them the ability to gauge their performance and attempt to improve themselves.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 07:35 PM

Hey hey hey, maybe you might be fine with not having deaths tracked but I am not. I don't mind if they aren't public but I wanna see as many of my stats as they can track. And deaths do matter. KDR even matters. With that said, a 1:1 KDR or higher is NOT necessarily what to strive for.

If you are sniping or something similarly oriented on mostly killing or suppressing enemies, yes, your KDR should be higher. If you are piloting a drop ship or are storming an objective, it still matters but it means that a lower KDR doesn't mean you are doing worse necessarily. Basically I am saying if you are doing something like sniping maybe a good KDR is 2:1 but if you are doing something inherently more dangerous maybe a KDR or .25:1 is still ok.

Stats should definitely have the option to be viewed as a whole or per class.

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Drakkonan

/minute was the worst thing to happen to Battlefield. It can be argued a relevent stat in a round-based game like Battlefield, but I shouldn't have to explain why it goes against all that Planetside was, and Planetside 2 should be. I'd rather they keep deaths as a stat then add a time factor.

I feel I'm reiterating myself, but the solution is simple:
-Allow players to hide their stats from the public/outfit/friends/all
-Get rid of the death stat completely
-Add a stat incorporating support points

If we're gong to have stats, a medic who only heals and revives and has a KDR or 0 should have stats that show that he's actually an effective player despite having 9000 deaths and no kills. Granted, this is an extreme case, but they're (Higby) all about "play the game the way you want". Well, the way stats are right now prevent this type of play style from being relevant.

I agree that /minute stats are also bad. Any stat that acts as a punishment and influences you to do something that you might not otherwise want to do is bad. A per minute stat punishes you for every second you're not in serious mode. If you're goofing around with a buddy having fun or if you're trying out a new tactic, you're actively being punished by that stat every minute. Why should the game be punishing you for having fun and trying new things?