IMO KillCam killing the Game

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Tool

I think its worth saying that Cod is its own beast. It can afford to teach players their mistakes quickly because of the pace of the game. Learning how to lead targets at range, controlling recoil, etc is something an mmo shouldn't spoon feed its player base.

These things are a form of progression. Something learned and then passed on by players teaching one another and through practice. In kotor we practiced a lot, not just on our gun-game but any aspect that makes us better both individually and as a group. Training like this added an important layer to ps1 that helped it be set apart from the cods and battlefields.

Progression not in the form of gear or stats but skill and coordination. Moral of the story is, look at ps2 as an mmo and what that entails; not just a modern shooter with simply more players than usual.

This - let the community be strong and allow the players to teach each other.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Tool

I think its worth saying that Cod is its own beast. It can afford to teach players their mistakes quickly because of the pace of the game. Learning how to lead targets at range, controlling recoil, etc is something an mmo shouldn't spoon feed its player base.

I see what you are saying, but I actually think that is all the more reason to give new players the tools to learn. I think, due to the huge number of ways to die, Planetside has a steeper learning curve than your run of the mill arena shooter. Helping newer players through that learning curve in every way possible will increase enjoyment as well as keep populations up which is more fundamental to Planetside than most other games.

[General M]

Personally, I'm happy with any of these scenarios:

1) Have a PS1 style cam, maybe rotatable but with a fixed point being the players body, then cut to loadout screen

2) Some form of focus on the player who killed you but nothing on his surroundings

3) For the player to be able to see an overview of the battleground he was fighting (maybe a birds eye view over a fairly large area of land)

4) Any form of killcam for new players only - first few levels/hours of play

5) No killcam

Just my 2 pennies

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I see what you are saying, but I actually think that is all the more reason to give new players the tools to learn. I think, due to the huge number of ways to die, Planetside has a steeper learning curve than your run of the mill arena shooter. Helping newer players through that learning curve in every way possible will increase enjoyment as well as keep populations up which is more fundamental to Planetside than most other games.

That's true but I feel there's better ways to do such than a killcam. Like the above mentioned, relegating that to the community to train those new players is I feel the most ideal method.

A better form of training tutorial can accomplish this as well. A sort of vr boot camp for movement, weapons, vehicles and equipment/classes. Ending with a simulation using the already existing ai. All the basics needed and given for the player to dive in and grow further.

An example mind you but the point remains, there's better alternatives to help new players.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by WaryWizard

How does a kill cam help people learn? Seriously. I cannot fathom a SINGLE instance in which it helps. Someone please tell me how a kill cam is useful in ANY game type other than a 15 min 16vs16 match. I'll try and think of some right now

I am walking down a hallway. There is a door that leads to a somewhat open alleyway. I have a choice of going left or right. I look both ways, and it all seems clear. I decide to go left. After about a second I die. The kill cam shows an enemy walking down an alleyway and turning right. He sees me with my back facing him, and shoots. What did I learn? I should have gone right instead?

I am outside. There are bushes and trees. I am looking around for enemies as I advance. Bullets fly from a bush and I die. The kill cam shows an enemy hiding in a bush that clearly saw me and killed me. What did I learn? Should I shoot every bush I come across now?

I see an enemy running in my direction. I go to shoot, but he makes a sudden movement to the right. My bullet misses by inches, and he opens fire. My gun has a lower rate of fire, and I die. What did I learn? Don't miss?

What have I ever learned from a kill cam that has made me better? Nothing. I knew everything that the kill cam shows. I didn't notice him hiding. I wasn't looking in his direction. I have bad aim. What, is, there, to, learn?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Gandhi]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I see what you are saying, but I actually think that is all the more reason to give new players the tools to learn. I think, due to the huge number of ways to die, Planetside has a steeper learning curve than your run of the mill arena shooter. Helping newer players through that learning curve in every way possible will increase enjoyment as well as keep populations up which is more fundamental to Planetside than most other games.

I think anything you can learn from a killcam can be learned just as easily from watching a few gameplay videos on YouTube. It seems like a weak justification for a feature with (I think) no other redeeming qualities and at least one big problem.

[Duddy]

Originally Posted by Gandhi

I think anything you can learn from a killcam can be learned just as easily from watching a few gameplay videos on YouTube. It seems like a weak justification for a feature with (I think) no other redeeming qualities and at least one big problem.

I'm not for killcams, but that's as weak a justification against them.

Expecting people to go to an external resource to learn about how to play the game is silly. That's like getting a board game and the rule book is just a slip of paper telling you to go read the rulebook on the website, completely impractical.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Tool

That's true but I feel there's better ways to do such than a killcam. Like the above mentioned, relegating that to the community to train those new players is I feel the most ideal method.

A better form of training tutorial can accomplish this as well. A sort of vr boot camp for movement, weapons, vehicles and equipment/classes. Ending with a simulation using the already existing ai. All the basics needed and given for the player to dive in and grow further.

An example mind you but the point remains, there's better alternatives to help new players.

I think those are great ideas! I think there should be many different ways to improve, but killcams are a way to do it while actually playing the game. No matter how good the VR is, it doesn't come close to the same conditions as actual gameplay.

Also, asking for help is not something that should be forced onto players. Although the original Planetside community is great, fps communities in general don't have the best reputation and there may be some scarred socially awkward penguins out there.

Also, Graywolves, are you trying to freakin troll me with that crap? That's one of the posts that made me create the earlier one you replied to about how killcams have in fact helped me. So saying they don't teach anything is bullshit.

@Gandhi - You make a good point. Youtube can certainly be helpful. I think the only advantages a killcam would have over that would be it is more immediate (instant) and it is taken from your own personal experience so the context is easier to grasp.

[Warborn]

Someone should put basically every change they've made to the game up to a vote and I bet people would vote against all of it. These polls are both hilarious and enlightening.

[Gandhi]

Originally Posted by Duddy

Expecting people to go to an external resource to learn about how to play the game is silly. That's like getting a board game and the rule book is just a slip of paper telling you to go read the rulebook on the website, completely impractical.

Well I'd expect them to learn how to play from the community and the tutorial, that's how it's done in almost every game out there.

edit: Besides there's a difference between learning how to play and becoming more skilled at the game. Planetside doesn't have a steep learning curve, not like EVE for example. Someone totally new to FPS games could pick up the basics in a couple hours or less, from there it's building skill, and it's really not uncommon to go to external resources for that. Strategy guides, walkthroughs, tips to improve your gameplay, these things have been around since forever.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I think those are great ideas! I think there should be many different ways to improve, but killcams are a way to do it while actually playing the game. No matter how good the VR is, it doesn't come close to the same conditions as actual gameplay.

Also, asking for help is not something that should be forced onto players. Although the original Planetside community is great, fps communities in general don't have the best reputation and there may be some scarred socially awkward penguins out there.

Also, Graywolves, are you trying to freakin troll me with that crap? That's one of the posts that made me create the earlier one you replied to about how killcams have in fact helped me. So saying they don't teach anything is bullshit.

@Gandhi - You make a good point. Youtube can certainly be helpful. I think the only advantages a killcam would have over that would be it is more immediate (instant) and it is taken from your own personal experience so the context is easier to grasp.

They don't teach anything you wouldn't already know or would teach you something rediculously situational.

Killcams helped you in other games because everyone could make their loadouts similar because there was no real class and the scale was small on tiny maps.

As the game is an MMO, interacting with other players is really important. So players actually SHOULD be encouraged to seek help from others.

[Tool]

This seems to be one of topics where conceptual notions aren't terribly far from the eventual practice. We've seen this mechanic before and know the results.

Do the pros outweigh the cons for killcams? Like I've said before, it ultimately depends on the type of fps ps2 hopes to be. However, also being an mmo is a large part of the choice. The variable I think which goes against killcams. The feeling, notions killcams give is arcade not mmo.

[MpS]

Originally Posted by Tool

This seems to be one of topics where conceptual notions aren't terribly far from the eventual practice. We've seen this mechanic before and know the results.

Do the pros outweigh the cons for killcams? Like I've said before, it ultimately depends on the type of fps ps2 hopes to be. However, also being an mmo is a large part of the choice. The variable I think which goes against killcams. The feeling, notions killcams give is arcade not mmo.

I don't remember when but Higby said at one point that planetside 2 is trying to be the re-imagined version of the original Planetside. That said Planetside wasn't just an arcade shooter that didn't take itself seriously, if PS2 is trying to be what Planetside is but better then kill cams shouldn't be included.

[Duddy]

Originally Posted by Gandhi

Well I'd expect them to learn how to play from the community and the tutorial, that's how it's done in almost every game out there.

edit: Besides there's a difference between learning how to play and becoming more skilled at the game. Planetside doesn't have a steep learning curve, not like EVE for example. Someone totally new to FPS games could pick up the basics in a couple hours or less, from there it's building skill, and it's really not uncommon to go to external resources for that. Strategy guides, walkthroughs, tips to improve your gameplay, these things have been around since forever.

I'd have to disagree with you here, many of the people I managed to convince to play Planetside were completely lost without me to guide them through what was happening. Sure nothing was difficult per-se (nothing you'd normally do anyway) but without the additional knowledge some peopel would spend their entire time in Planetside not knowing some of the basics.

I'd also argue that you need only look at the MOBA genre to see how a lack of thought into teaching the players goes.

And whilst the examples you give are great learning tools, don;t get me wrong I use them myself whenever playing a game, the fact is they are external and as a result the oblivious majority may never see them.

That said what I'm talking about starts taking this away from just being about the killcam to a far more meta discussion about learning curves and the lengths developers do to flatten it in games.

[Gandhi]

Originally Posted by Duddy

I'd have to disagree with you here, many of the people I managed to convince to play Planetside were completely lost without me to guide them through what was happening. Sure nothing was difficult per-se (nothing you'd normally do anyway) but without the additional knowledge some peopel would spend their entire time in Planetside not knowing some of the basics.

Yeah you're right, the new player introduction is a big part of it. And that's something that could definitely be improved in Planetside 2, just... well just not with kill cams please