Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS..... - Page 25

IronMole · 2012-02-28, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by goneglockin

I am 30 years old and I have been playing these god damn games since they have existed, and if anyone has an idea of what they are talking about- it\\\'s me.

Oh dear...

Seagoon · 2012-02-28, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by goneglockin

I am 30 years old and I have been playing these god damn games since they have existed, and if anyone has an idea of what they are talking about- it\\\'s me.

Would you agree that mechanics are rules?

Which statement do you honestly feel is more true?

Rules encourage desired behavior.

Rules discourage undesired behavior.

Anyone who isn\\\'t completely full of shit will tell you rules don\\\'t encourage anything- and neither do game mechanics. We all know rules were made to be broken, playing by them gets you no where, and we are always looking for ways to bend them. Even if people who consider themselves to be upstanding citizens hardly see rules as a model for behavior. They are and always will be limitations.

Aside from children with war fantasies, who talk about IRL as if it has any bearing on a video game, no one sees these things as points of encouragement for what you call tactical play.

What.

For starters, try saying that first bit when you are at your next job interview for a games design position... Im sure you will be surprised at what they say...

Secondly, let me ask you this simple question:

What is a game?

Let me answer that for you, because you might get confused...

A game is a series of rules to restrict a players options in order to provide entertainment or challenge.

A game with out rules is nothing.

I mean look at chess. What defines each piece on the board is how many of them there are at the start, where they are placed at the start and how their movement is restricted to the board and in relation to the grid.

The whole game is defined by restrictions. The difference between a queen and a pawn is only the restrictions applied to both.

And as for the bending the rules thing, well yeah you can distract your opponent and move a peice when its not your turn or do somthing like that, but then you are not playing chess any more are you ?

Surely now you realise the fundamental flaw in your thinking right ?
Or do I have to spell it out for you ?

(P.S. I design games for a living, but lets play qualifications top trumps some other time...)

goneglockin · 2012-02-28, 09:51 PM

I seriously don't have time for this shit anymore.

You use chess as an analogy but have no fucking clue what happens when you set a board down in front of the average teen after explaining the rules to him. Guess what? He doesn't know how to play because the rules don't tell you how to play, they tell you how not to play.

It's the same fucking thing in FPS games. So don't expect people to play like SEAL team guys because you included a bunch of shitty, cumbersome slow game mechanics designed to mimic "real life."

I remember what it's like to post in a PlanetSide forum now, it's like trying to tell a Scientologist that L Ron Hubbard was full of shit. So thanks for taking me back a several years. Now get lost.

kubacheski · 2012-02-29, 03:15 PM

Holy Cheeze thread-jack much?

Ironsights - fine with any shooter using a decent physics engine. Just cause some jack tard wants to run and shoot with the same accuracy of a prone sniper isn't a valid argument for not having them.

It's called aiming.
Have you ever shot a gun?
Does your accuracy increase when you actually look down the barrel and line up the sights?
Do you have the same accuracy shooting from prone, sitting, standing, walking, and running stances?
What about holding the weapon with 1 or 2 hands? any accuracy change?

One of the "tactics" that contributes to the great success of the US Military during ground combat is that they are trained to aim before shooting. Sounds simple doesn't it? More than "look where you shoot", but "aim where you shoot". Modern weapons are manufactured with a high degree of accuracy and configurability with the ability to adjust your sights to varrying shooting distances. I doubt the physics of ballistics has changed much between current day and the early 2640's.

Since I said ballistics, pertaining to projectile, people will now bring up the dirty Vanu and their energy weapons with no-drop ammo. Fine, put a laser pointer on your beefed up stun gun and try to see that little freaken red dot at 100 yards. ("Don't phase me, dude!"). You still need a sight of some sort. The "lasing medium" is still typically a rod, thus having similar characteristics to a gun barrel. i.e. if its straight, looking down the cylinder will show you where the laser is going to go.

I knew a guy that put a dot with a different color marker in the "sweet spot" on his screen for different shooter games. Kinda funny, but it worked. This requires the game to keep the player camera centered tho. Mechanics like leans, crouch, prone, etc would throw this off.

Glockin? really dude. I don't expect people to play like a SEAL Team. I expect them to learn to work together like a SEAL Team. If someone just wants to zerg zerg zerg, then so be it, let your ratio suck. If you have fun with it, have fun with it. But, i must add, when it's the guy that's aiming his weapon with iron sights that kills you, don't be bitching cause he's owning you 3-1. When you zerg zerg zerg and keep seeing your name on the shit end of the stick, you may wanna change your play style. It's much more fun fraggin a dirty Vanu than being fragged by one.

Almost forgot, how you gonna bend the rules without breaking EULA. I don't think you're phrasing things right. Players looking for an advantage are not bending the rules, they're leveraging the rules to get the game to trend in their favor. So if in PS2 if accuracy increase, either by code or by just aiming your weapon, when you use iron sights, then people typically will pattern their behavior to use iron sights.

Some people like kill ratios, some people like kills, some like BR, some like CR, some like driving/flying, some people like watching the meta-game of world control progress when they're working and jump in to "pew-pew" when they can. PS1 and PS2 deliver opportunity for all of these things. Lucky for the people who don't like iron sights that there's more to do than have high kills. or more appropriately high kill-to-deaths ratios. Any spammer can zerg, it's just most people I know would like to spend time shooting over spawning. The zerg, while amazingly fun at times, is a time where you forego accuracy and spew bullets cause you're gonna die before you run out. Reload happens not in combat, but in the spawn tube.

Iron Sights are fine. It'd be nice to option them off at a penalty. You can't expect the game to allow the same accuracy for a guy who aims and one who doesnt. This does not mean that someone can't be as accurate without sights. But that takes time to become familiar with the mechanics of aiming and skilled in the percise adjustments that would need to be made to get as accurate of a shot.

sylphaen · 2012-02-29, 03:47 PM

But can ironsights be fun ? And does everyone has the same definition of fun ?

In the end, devs decide what goes in their game and we'll like it or we won't. What counts for a company is that a lot of people (who can pay) like it.

Gandhi · 2012-02-29, 03:52 PM

When did pressing Mouse2 before firing become synonymous with aiming? Does Tribes not require aiming?

Besides, this is a video game set in the future we're talking about. If your argument starts with "But in real life..." then you might as well stop there because you've already missed the point. What matters is what's fun and appropriate for the kind of gameplay PS2 has, maybe that'll be ironsights, maybe it won't be, maybe it'll be something in between. So lets all keep an open mind and play around with some different ideas in beta.

Lord Cosine · 2012-02-29, 05:40 PM

Until we have direct mental control over our in game avatars we have to let our characters improvise some of our actions. For instance when I press 'W' I assume that my character is going to take the necessary steps to walk forward all by himself.

I think the same thing applies to aiming in a game like planetside 1. In "real life TM" aiming take multiple actions you use you eyes to see the target and your arms to adjust the weapon to point at where you are looking, and stabilize it against recoil. In the game world we only have 1 device for both of these actions.

so either the mouse represents your eyes choosing your target location and the CoF represents your arms ability to compensate for the weapons kickback. (Planetside 1)

Or the mouse represents your eyeballs fused to your weapon and the center of screen displacement represents the kickback. This may seem more realistic at first glance, however in "real life TM" your eyes don't bounce around sporadically when you fire a weapon. (CoD)

Neither is perfect so lets go with whatever is more fun. My vote is for PS1 style, though I can live with anything if its implemented well.

Also Ironsights has no impact on tactics or aiming skill, that all comes down to their overall combat, weapon, and metagame design.

goneglockin · 2012-02-29, 06:37 PM

The greatest influence of iron sights is not on aiming, it's on moving.

I can't think of a game that let's you run around full speed while aiming down the sight, it would appear ridiculous anyway. So using this feature is going to slow you down considerably.

These are the same games that tie CoF to movement speed and stance. The slower you go, the tighter the cone, the longer the animation to get into/out of a stance, the tighter the cone. Run speeds are lower if you want to shoot at all, you cannot "sprint" (move at any speed which is actually difficult for another player to hit you at) while shooting.

Iron sights are another mechanic that take movement away from FPS games, and this is one of the two main things that they have always been about- from 1994 to 2006.

That's when we really started seeing more of these slow down features, post xbox. People like to kid themselves about the purpose of these mechanics, but the reason the fast paced twitch games are gone is because they didn't sell as well as slow, campy, shooters anyone can play. That's a fact.

Lord Cosine · 2012-02-29, 06:59 PM

Yeah, there are a few features that tend to sneak their way into ironsighted games that I am not too keen on.

1. Complete inaccuracy out of iron-sight mode. (I think this is the worst as it forces everyone in scope during firefights allowing for 2 & 3 to become annoying)
2. Severe movement impairment in ironsight mode.
3. Wild reticle displacement while firing. Worst Offender Halo2 SMG. fuck that weapon.

Seagoon · 2012-02-29, 08:00 PM

Oh ffs.

You know, there was once this game called planetside, you know the funny thing about it ?

Advanced movement skills like you might find in quake or unrealtournament or tribes are not present in that game. It was not a speed shooter, and I dont see why PS2 will suddenly be one, especially after the devs said they wanted to make it more like BF.

Infact, there was this thing you had to do to improve your accuracy and reduce your movement speed for long range fighting...

It was called crouching...

It did the same thing as ADS (or atleast what you guys think ADS does).

Oh shoot, shock horror, PS1, the great PS1 and infact many many other FPSes back then used this exact same mechanic, games these days do too.

Not every FPS back then was a speed shooter, and certainly not all the good ones.

Sounds like you guys desperately want to turn PS2 into somthing it is not, and will never be. At best if you guys were in charge, PS2 would be a horrible mishmash of random gameplay elements that dont work together effectivly.

Oh and also? ADS was a PC invention, made for PC games. Consoles made use of it just to cover up another layer of aim correction.

And finally, stop saying that just because game X had ADS and it was implemented in way Y that ADS in planetside 2 will also be the same. Such reasoning is childish and just pathetic.

There is a very large number of things you can do with sights and scopes that will not only add depth to the game but also make it more immersive.

Patek · 2012-03-12, 02:12 AM

not to bring an old topic back up but i find nothing wrong with iron sights, i enjoy them. as long as hipfire isnt nerfed to the point where you cant shoot anyone farther than 5 meters or less lol @_@

personally and im not sure if ima get hate for saying this but bf3 got hip fire/iron sights right.

also i think higby said that there will be different types of scopes/red dot/etc that we can unlock as we progress our character so i dont see what the problem will be. unless people dont like the gun taking up their screen lol

Shade Millith · 2012-03-12, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by kubacheski

Holy Cheeze thread-jack much?

Ironsights - fine with any shooter using a decent physics engine. Just cause some jack tard wants to run and shoot with the same accuracy of a prone sniper isn't a valid argument for not having them.

It's called aiming.
Have you ever shot a gun?
Does your accuracy increase when you actually look down the barrel and line up the sights?
Do you have the same accuracy shooting from prone, sitting, standing, walking, and running stances?
What about holding the weapon with 1 or 2 hands? any accuracy change?

Originally Posted by Patek

personally and im not sure if ima get hate for saying this but bf3 got hip fire/iron sights right.

Don't even bother talking about 'Realism' and 'Iron Sights' in the same sentence. Not the way PS2's or BF2-3's work.

Iron sights with realism don't have a Cone of Fire that increases in bloom the more you hold down the trigger. The bullet should go where the barrel is pointing. They use weapon recoil to effect accuracy.

Either the bullet hits were the barrel is aimed when iron sighted and recoil is used to effect accuracy, or don't have iron sights.

BF's 'Iron Sights' are just a zoom in, slightly lowered COF with a pretty graphic taking up half the screen. Nothing realistic about it.

bigcracker · 2012-03-12, 03:30 AM

Hipfire should be less accurate why? not for realism but I kind of want skill to be a factor in this game and not everyone running around doing circles sprinting jumping and firing.Now all the bitter vets are gonna scream but BF is a good balance of Close range you dont need iron sights and long range you need them.

Also do agree that ironsights should zoom unless you have a scope attached or Holo. Maybe something like arma or red orchestra.

Example

Gandhi · 2012-03-12, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by bigcracker

Hipfire should be less accurate why? not for realism but I kind of want skill to be a factor in this game and not everyone running around doing circles sprinting jumping and firing.

Where's the skill in pressing an extra button before shooting? I'm not trying to be a dick, I genuinely don't understand the association between iron sights and skill.

bigcracker · 2012-03-12, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

I am entirely too center focused to turn my fucking head when I want to look left or right. I can do it just fine with my wrist.

Now that battlefield 3 simulator looks amazing.

I wasn't talking about Track IR, sadly the only Ironsight video shows track IR.I was showing that you can have a ironsight system without the need to zoom in

Originally Posted by Gandhi

Where's the skill in pressing an extra button before shooting? I'm not trying to be a dick, I genuinely don't understand the association between iron sights and skill.

Adding bad accuracy for hip fire turns a game from quake to something like a BF/COd/Arma etc game.