New single person mechs designed from scratch for PS2

[Figment]

You did, you made a specific example of a unit you'd consider a more viable alternative to BFRs.

But you constantly keep reminding people that you can't make judgements without knowing the exact context, so how could you possibly by your own standards have a preference for an alternate type of mech?

Mind, I'm not concerned with the argument that this mech you proposed would be a better alternative to BFRs or the one proposed by the OP - I'm merely saying you are being hypocritical.

Also, as you more or less deduced, not the entire post was aimed at you specifically, I often simply switch to general statements.


Thing is, even if we're the eventual minority, a promise was made and a promise should be kept. Maybe we'll miss out on this one fantastically well implemented, well balanced mech unit. But that still doesn't mean it should be considered as its roles can be done by other units as well and regardless of how its implemented, it would be felt like a stab in the back of PS1 vets and that is more important than anything else.

Besides. Why should new people care either way? Just because they are new does not mean the majority of new players WANTS mechs or has an entirely different perspective either. It's a bit like Hollywood movies where they take something that worked as a massive succes in a specific series, setting or book and then say "well, the GENERAL PUBLIC wants something different, so we changed it completely from what the fans expected and we just did something what we always do with a bit of a hint to the original". Nobody can presume to talk for large crowds, especially not-yet-existing ones.



Let me bet you this for this new, huge playerbase: whatever gameplay was first in PS2 will be the nostalgic thing people think should never be changed because it set the standard.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by Figment

You did, you made a specific example of a unit you'd consider a more viable alternative to BFRs.

But you constantly keep reminding people that you can't make judgements without knowing the exact context, so how could you possibly by your own standards have a preference for an alternate type of mech?

Mind, I'm not concerned with the argument that this mech you proposed would be a better alternative to BFRs or the one proposed by the OP - I'm merely saying you are being hypocritical.

I know you're desperate to turn the last thread back upon me, but making a specific example of something more viable is not the same as saying it should be in the game. I think flails would be a more viable alternative than player-controlled sonic the hedgehog rip-offs that are invulnerable and can buzz-saw through people, but that doesn't imply that I think flails should be in the game.

Originally Posted by Figment

Thing is, even if we're the eventual minority, a promise was made and a promise should be kept. Maybe we'll miss out on this one fantastically well implemented, well balanced mech unit. But that still doesn't mean it should be considered as its roles can be done by other units as well and regardless of how its implemented, it would be felt like a stab in the back of PS1 vets and that is more important than anything else.

You just made me realize that we were never promised there wouldn't be mechs. We were promised there wouldn't be BFRs. Bahaha. I know they wouldn't dare, but it's an amusing technicality.

Originally Posted by Figment

Besides. Why should new people care either way? Just because they are new does not mean the majority of new players WANTS mechs or has an entirely different perspective either. It's a bit like Hollywood movies where they take something that worked as a massive succes in a specific series, setting or book and then say "well, the GENERAL PUBLIC wants something different, so we changed it completely from what the fans expected and we just did something what we always do with a bit of a hint to the original". Nobody can presume to talk for large crowds, especially not-yet-existing ones.

...And I haven't. In fact, that's practically what I was criticizing.

[VioletZero]

There's no reason why Mechs can't work in Planetside.

[FriendlyFire]

I am imagining an exo-suit for the MAX, that you purchase form the vehicle terminal. Maybe something at the end of the MAX tree. Call it Heavy MAX?

like this (imagine the smaller character as the MAX):

[sylphaen]

What do BFRs have to do with this? You were talking about mechs.

BFR has always been about being Big F***ing Robots, like the BFG 9000. It's pretty much why to me mech = BFR.

I do not watch a ton of animes but all the mechanized I have ever seen were all BFRs.

I mentionned the MAX earlier in the thread as being a mech and I was even corrected that it would fit more in the category power armor or exo-skeleton category.

trying to dismantle the faulty logic behind the premature objections towards them

But in the end, even if they are tank-sized, does the game need robots (or super soldiers) ? I am not certain to see what extra they could bring to the game unless they just take the role of another vehicle. And that would be just re-modelling a vehicle role into a biped vehicle.

Even then, I am pretty sure people will feel disappointed because they will want their overpowered BFRs without understanding that PS2 is not about playing Mechwarrior or Hawken.

And those who think MAXes do not fit as being "mechanized infantry" is just because they are not OP enough.

I appreciate debating and I'm simply presenting my opinion, however false my assumptions or thinking may be in your eyes.

I say that with BF2142 in my mind were there were mechs. I don't think they were adding much to the game... Except an extra target for gunships/engineers? So yes, I agree with you that mechs are possible but I do not see any interest in them.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by sylphaen

BFR has always been about being Big F***ing Robots, like the BFG 9000. It's pretty much why to me mech = BFR.

I do not watch a ton of animes but all the mechanized I have ever seen were all BFRs.

I mentionned the MAX earlier in the thread as being a mech and I was even corrected that it would fit more in the category power armor or exo-skeleton category.

Yeah...by me.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sentinel

As much anime as I've watched, they're the only kinds of mechs I like. Bare-boned and agile.

Originally Posted by sylphaen

But in the end, even if they are tank-sized, does the game need robots (or super soldiers) ? I am not certain to see what extra they could bring to the game unless they just take the role of another vehicle. And that would be just re-modelling a vehicle role into a biped vehicle.

I say that with BF2142 in my mind were there were mechs. I don't think they were adding much to the game... Except an extra target for gunships/engineers? So yes, I agree with you that mechs are possible but I do not see any interest in them.

I looked up the advantages/roles of mechs/walkers earlier. Common themes were a fair amount of speed, superior maneuverability, height advantage, a smaller target depth-wise and occasionally width-wise, stealth roles, support roles, reconnaissance and sensory/radar roles...None of those involve great amounts of firepower or durability.

Originally Posted by sylphaen

Even then, I am pretty sure people will feel disappointed because they will want their overpowered BFRs without understanding that PS2 is not about playing Mechwarrior or Hawken.

And those who think MAXes do not fit as being "mechanized infantry" is just because they are not OP enough.

I appreciate debating and I'm simply presenting my opinion, however false my assumptions or thinking may be in your eyes.

Well okay, what are your reasons for believing the majority of people want overpowered BFR-style mechs?

[VioletZero]

Originally Posted by sylphaen

BFR has always been about being Big F***ing Robots, like the BFG 9000. It's pretty much why to me mech = BFR.

I do not watch a ton of animes but all the mechanized I have ever seen were all BFRs.

I mentionned the MAX earlier in the thread as being a mech and I was even corrected that it would fit more in the category power armor or exo-skeleton category.




But in the end, even if they are tank-sized, does the game need robots (or super soldiers) ? I am not certain to see what extra they could bring to the game unless they just take the role of another vehicle. And that would be just re-modelling a vehicle role into a biped vehicle.

Even then, I am pretty sure people will feel disappointed because they will want their overpowered BFRs without understanding that PS2 is not about playing Mechwarrior or Hawken.

And those who think MAXes do not fit as being "mechanized infantry" is just because they are not OP enough.

I appreciate debating and I'm simply presenting my opinion, however false my assumptions or thinking may be in your eyes.

I say that with BF2142 in my mind were there were mechs. I don't think they were adding much to the game... Except an extra target for gunships/engineers? So yes, I agree with you that mechs are possible but I do not see any interest in them.

Okay, playing devil's advocate here:

Mechs in 2142 were a dedicated anti-infantry platform. Mostly because by standing on two legs, it was able to have much better gun depression than tanks have.

They were also pretty good at anti-air and kinda meh against other ground armor. In that game, it worked out quite well.

I don't really know how that would work out in PS2.

[Baron]

Originally Posted by VioletZero

Okay, playing devil's advocate here:

Mechs in 2142 were a dedicated anti-infantry platform. Mostly because by standing on two legs, it was able to have much better gun depression than tanks have.

They were also pretty good at anti-air and kinda meh against other ground armor. In that game, it worked out quite well.

I don't really know how that would work out in PS2.

I agree about the BF2142 mechs...they were balanced pretty well. However the PS1 BFR's were just out of control. AA-AI-AV combinations all possible on a single 2-crew unit...and on SOME empires, the top AV gun worked efficiently on just about ANY target

[sylphaen]

Well okay, what are your reasons for believing the majority of people want overpowered BFR-style mechs

Because Japanese anime is all the rage ? It's also definitely how PS1 devs envisioned BFRs so I guess I am not alone in associating mechs with BFRs and missile showers/OP guns.

There not really any rational backing about that belief because I am not in people's heads and cannot fund a survey to back it either.

Now that's only about the mech = BFR mental association. I do not know at all if people really want "overpowered BFR-style mechs". As a matter of fact, I think most do not. Yet, some do and a thread about them spawns once in a while.

I am my fantasies about super MAXes that would be agile, stealthy and pack a lot of utilities along with an AI role. Now would it be balanced ? As in, would we need any soldiers with such a cool super armor ?

At least, your mech idea would not enter bases. It could however be as annoying as mosquitoes ever were in PS1 (from a ground soldier point of view). Or not, because given enough thought and effort, everything could become balanced.

But really, why not put it those abilities on soldier classes or ATVs ? Because we want mechs ?

Well, wanting something is a valid reason. I mean... I want separated driver/gunners on tanks. Others are against it.

No big deal, the devs will decide what is good for their game and we'll just see what happens in the end and choose to play it or not. If it fails, the people who enjoy it will simply play with less players.

Instant vehicle entrance and change of ownership in BF2142 irked me to no end. I never played that game again until recently and it reminded me why I hated it. It worked for a lot of people but just not for me.

Back to the bipeds, those roles could be put on any frame and balanced out so yes, we could have bipeds in PS2 just like there are ATVs, tanks and there could be buggies.

But as they get balanced to leave room for other roles on other platforms (i.e. soldiers, tanks, air vehicles, etc...), will we end up with something you people like or will players get disappointed ?

We may not know unless the devs try it.

[Warborn]

This really isn't difficult guys. Mechs are common in science fiction. From Robot Jox to Battletech/Mechwarrior to whatever anime stuff, they're very well-known around the world. So conceptually mechs are reasonably popular.

The balance of them has nothing to do with anything else though. Their function, durability, and power is just numbers punched in by a programmer. The way they play in the game is not at all spoken for based on the fact that they're large, bipedal robots.

Dwelling on how balanced they'd be or what role they'd have or anything else is silly. They'd be balanced like any other vehicle and their role would be whatever makes the most sense from a gameplay standpoint.

That is all that there is to say about mechs in Planetside 2.

[Effective]

Overwhelming majority of the population do not want mechs/bfr/whatever. Dont expect them at release, don't expect them anytime soon. Don't expect them ever.

End of stupid argument.

[VioletZero]

Originally Posted by Effective

Overwhelming majority of the population do not want mechs/bfr/whatever. Dont expect them at release, don't expect them anytime soon. Don't expect them ever.

End of stupid argument.

That has nothing to do with the fact that this forum is mostly populated by Planetside veterans who were burned by the BFR's poor implementation. No sir.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Vancha

I know you're desperate to turn the last thread back upon me, but making a specific example of something more viable is not the same as saying it should be in the game. I think flails would be a more viable alternative than player-controlled sonic the hedgehog rip-offs that are invulnerable and can buzz-saw through people, but that doesn't imply that I think flails should be in the game.

Which is why I simply noted you made assumptions (speculated conditions of a mech) and gave a speculative judgement within a speculative context and using a PS1 analogy (BFRs).

Of course, I'm not saying you can't make that judgement, because I'm of the opinion it's quite easy to make such assesments and I don't think those kind of things need to be too far from the truth.

You just made me realize that we were never promised there wouldn't be mechs. We were promised there wouldn't be BFRs. Bahaha. I know they wouldn't dare, but it's an amusing technicality.

Go back a couple posts of mine (first in this thread) and see that I beat you to this conclusion long, long ago. ;P Mechs =/= BFRs, however, BFRs == (OP) Mechs and therefore Mechs == BFRs (== OP Mechs) in the minds of most PS1 players (see the aforementioned assosiative reasons in that same post).

Possibly even if they'd be chicken sized. Though using a chicken sized mech (without a shield that can withstand a Magrider's continuous fire, of course) would probably go a long way to restoring the mental differentiation between mech and PS BFR.

...And I haven't. In fact, that's practically what I was criticizing.

Quite.

[Mastachief]

Originally Posted by VioletZero

That has nothing to do with the fact that this forum is mostly populated by Planetside veterans who were burned by the BFR's poor implementation. No sir.

Then have this discussion on the official forum once they launch planetside2 instead of banging your head against the wall here.

Let the thread die or have it locked we are just going around in circles.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by sylphaen

Because Japanese anime is all the rage ? It's also definitely how PS1 devs envisioned BFRs so I guess I am not alone in associating mechs with BFRs and missile showers/OP guns.

There not really any rational backing about that belief because I am not in people's heads and cannot fund a survey to back it either.

Now that's only about the mech = BFR mental association. I do not know at all if people really want "overpowered BFR-style mechs". As a matter of fact, I think most do not. Yet, some do and a thread about them spawns once in a while.

So it's an assumption?

Originally Posted by sylphaen

I am my fantasies about super MAXes that would be agile, stealthy and pack a lot of utilities along with an AI role. Now would it be balanced ? As in, would we need any soldiers with such a cool super armor ?

At least, your mech idea would not enter bases. It could however be as annoying as mosquitoes ever were in PS1 (from a ground soldier point of view). Or not, because given enough thought and effort, everything could become balanced.

But really, why not put it those abilities on soldier classes or ATVs ? Because we want mechs ?

Well, wanting something is a valid reason. I mean... I want separated driver/gunners on tanks. Others are against it.

No big deal, the devs will decide what is good for their game and we'll just see what happens in the end and choose to play it or not. If it fails, the people who enjoy it will simply play with less players.

Instant vehicle entrance and change of ownership in BF2142 irked me to no end. I never played that game again until recently and it reminded me why I hated it. It worked for a lot of people but just not for me.

Back to the bipeds, those roles could be put on any frame and balanced out so yes, we could have bipeds in PS2 just like there are ATVs, tanks and there could be buggies.

But as they get balanced to leave room for other roles on other platforms (i.e. soldiers, tanks, air vehicles, etc...), will we end up with something you people like or will players get disappointed ?

We may not know unless the devs try it.

Sorry, your English is throwing me slightly.

Certain aspects of the roles I mentioned could well be better suited to an agile/light mech, but we just can't know yet.


Edit:

Originally Posted by Figment

Which is why I simply noted you made assumptions (speculated conditions of a mech) and gave a speculative judgement within a speculative context and using a PS1 analogy (BFRs).

Of course, I'm not saying you can't make that judgement, because I'm of the opinion it's quite easy to make such assesments and I don't think those kind of things need to be too far from the truth.

Where?

And as I made clear in the other thread, it wasn't speculative judgements I was opposed to.

Originally Posted by Figment

Go back a couple posts of mine (first in this thread) and see that I beat you to this conclusion long, long ago. ;P Mechs =/= BFRs, however, BFRs == (OP) Mechs and therefore Mechs == BFRs (== OP Mechs) in the minds of most PS1 players (see the aforementioned assosiative reasons in that same post).

Possibly even if they'd be chicken sized. Though using a chicken sized mech (without a shield that can withstand a Magrider's continuous fire, of course) would probably go a long way to restoring the mental differentiation between mech and PS BFR.

I wasn't really talking about that, but okay.