News: Jimmy Whisenhunt Joins PlanetSide 2 Team

[Zar]

Originally Posted by AzK

Bunny hopping doesn't have anything to do with ping and netcode, also, battlefield games don't have bunny hopping, that's right, none of them does. While you seem to think they do, since you mentioned 2142, so forgive me if it is I who have troubles taking you seriously.

they don't O.O huh what the hell have i been playing then that's called bf2 bf 2142 and bf3 >.> someone should let dice know some group of people is running using their games name and making it look bad O.O

[AzK]

Originally Posted by Seagoon

stuff

You're mentioning vehicles and logistics, none of them have anything to do with the gunplay being discussed here, if a liberator flies over a guy in open space and bombs him, it doesn't matter if the guy's crosshair has pinpoint accuracy while running, jumping, or sliding. It doesn't matter if the guy can sprint, bunnyhop or strafe/circle jump, he'll still get oneshot by the bombs.

And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by ODonnell

I just don't see PS2 being an e-sports type event. Neuter team sizes down and maybe it could, but from a team oriented standpoint you are looking at needing much higher payouts to be worth competing. If you could swing that then maybe you could starting talking about it being an esports event.

You know Ive been explaining how esports could work within the existing(as I understand it) framework of PS2 for a couple of days now.
-the format that traditional esports has run with will have to be changed
-accept that the gamefield will not be balanced

What Im thinking of are small squads competing against each other to achieve objectives in the game world. Similar to I guess the mission system but with the best fps players in the world. Achieve the objective within the parameters set up by that particular esport game and win prizes. Fail and you go home with nothing.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by Otleaz

It wasn't irrelevant at all. I was implying that it is typical of NC players to think something works because it takes skill when it doesn't. Bunny hopping might be a valid tactic in a LAN game, but in online play it is simply exploiting and bad game design.

You keep calling me bad if you like, but it is hard for me to take someone who is obviously in denial seriously. You fit in with the NC quite well.

this song was made because of people like you:

[AzK]

Originally Posted by Zar

they don't O.O huh what the hell have i been playing then that's called bf2 bf 2142 and bf3 >.> someone should let dice know some group of people is running using their games name and making it look bad O.O

Yeah, bunny hopping doesn't exist in the bf franchise, people refer to other people sprinting and jumping as bunny hopping when they just want to try an additional whine/excuse in there because they couldn't hit the person.

What REAL quake/cs bunnyhop/strafejump does is make you gain momentum/speed as you carefully jump while strafing left and right while also making subtle mouse movements, it requires precision, if you're good at it you can even achieve longer distance jumps from a standing position without needing to run first, and i'm positive bf games do not have that mechanic.

Also, strafe jumping / bunny hopping, has absolutely nothing to do with latency and has 0 effects on how hard a target is to hit, except well the obvious fact that the target would be moving faster or in less predictable way.

People on bf just get enraged at people sprinting and jumping because the hitboxes mess up and it's harder to get headshots, it's still VERY possible to hit them and kill them though, it's not like they become immaterial or something... still that doesn't have anything to do with bunnyhopping.

Hope that cleared things up for people using the wrong terms for different things!

[Zar]

Originally Posted by AzK

You're mentioning vehicles and logistics, none of them have anything to do with the gunplay being discussed here, if a liberators flies over a guy in open space and bombs him, it doesn't matter if the guy's crosshair has pinpoint accuracy while running, jumping, or sliding. It doesn't matter if the guy can spring, bunnyhop of strafe/circle jump, he'll still get oneshot by the bombs.

And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight.

considering bullet's bounce off aircraft and tank's like they are paper xD inless that guy has a rocket launcher were pretty safe on this one xD

[Zar]

Originally Posted by AzK

Yeah, bunny hopping doesn't exist in the bf franchise, people refer to other people sprinting and jumping as bunny hopping when they just want to try an additional whine/excuse in there because they couldn't hit the person.

What REAL quake/cs bunnyhop/strafejump does is make you gain momentum/speed as you carefully jump while strafing left and right while also making subtle mouse movements, it requires precision, if you're good at it you can even achieve longer distance jumps from a standing position without needing to run first, and i'm positive bf games do not have that mechanic.

ah what we have here is a simple different point of few i for one think *bunny hopping* means you jump up and down like a *bunny* while shooting till the guy on the other end is dead now what you think my might differ and that's cool world is full of people with different perspectives make's the world less boring.

[Saerain]

As an aspiring creative director: it gives me hope that someone can be hired to the position of Senior Game Designer without design experience.

But as a player: what?

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by AzK

First of all, i didn't say that being able to aim and move corrently is the true skill factor of those games (ut/quake/etc), if anything i said that it's just as important as the tactical aspect, and then i proceeded to say that however, the aim and movement factor in those games has a far higher skillcap compared to "camper" shooters, which is also undeniable. That's what i said.

You see, what you don't seem to understand/know about my "personal skill set" is that i have both. In ps1 i relied more on tactical awareness, not dying, and playing the situations to my advantage, the more odds i could stack in my favor the better, people hated me and called me lame or even a shit player for that. The game was no quake (post surge nerf) and you couldn't exactly single handedly face to face gun down people 1v10 anymore so i stopped doing that when it was no longer possible.

Yeah, tactics probably played a bigger role than aim in ps1, but not to the point that a terrible player could kill a very good one hands down. Which is what happens in games like cod or bf3.

And more importantly, a player that only has tactics on his side, will lose against another who has tactics (knows what he should be doing) + is also skilled (is actually able to do what he knows he should be doing, in a successful way).

I don't want to play a game where bad people are rewarded just because they know what they should be doing. They also need to be proficient at doing it.

A gunplay that tends to bf3's direction, makes the actual execution of what you're doing almost irrelevant, and that is BAD gameplay design. And that is why i'd rather push for the total opposite.

And I never said that a player shouldn't know how to do their job. In fact, what I said was that the hours and hours of practicing something inane like sidestepping should be spent learning to master the content the game devs provided instead. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. However, I'm speaking out against the petty little exploits that people employ to get an easy upper hand against someone else. Clipping, diving, bunny hopping, etc. are things that the average person will want nothing to do with and they shouldn't, because doing those things are stupid, not conducive to fun gameplay and are blatant abuse of mechanisms. THOSE have nothing to do with aim, reaction, tactics or any combination of the three.

Should a sniper put the time in to learn how to snipe? Absolutely, if he wants to be a good sniper he better, but it should be by using it while he plays the actual game and has fun doing it.

Originally Posted by AzK

And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight.

I don't see that happening in PS2 in relation to gun handling. I DO see a good infantryman using cover and positioning to win a 3v1 against people who aren't as able to think tactically and if that's the case they the guy won fair and square. What probably shouldn't happen is someone wining a 1v3 going toe-to-toe without getting behind cover and using only his gun. That shows a blatant design flaw....unless the three guys just can't aim worth crap.

[Otleaz]

Originally Posted by AzK

Bunny hopping doesn't have anything to do with ping and netcode, also, battlefield games don't have bunny hopping, that's right, none of them does. While you seem to think they do, since you mentioned 2142, so forgive me if it is I who have troubles taking you seriously.

The one who has been bitching about semantics this entire time has trouble taking me seriously?

Jumping messes with people with high ping in almost every game. The only ones it works in are games meant for jumping.

[Seagoon]

Originally Posted by elfailo

I suspect a lot of people don't like the e-sports/skill etc. talk because they aren't up for a stressful experience. The higher you get on the ladder, the more stressful things become. If you play for money, things get even more stressful. That stress can kill the fun, if fun is what you play for.

...snip...

This is one of the many difficulties a games designer faces, how to provide a high skill cap while also mantaining the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay mantra.
However, we are in luck afaik, from the gameplay at E3, it seems that the players there, who had just started playing PS2 for the first time ever seemed to pick up the basics very easily, even though im sure they were pointed in the right direction to begin with.

Somthing to remember though is that PS is a game where you dont have to play at the highest level to compete. Im sure this will be the same in PS2 as PS1, this is because the competitive elite players who play at a level where this stressful stuff is important are out numbered by quite a large ammount by normal players. Most of the time you will face other casual players so you have plenty of chance to get a good few kills in against players of your own level before running into one that takes the game srsly.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

You're fine. It was legible and made a lot of sense. My only concern with twitchy gameplay (one of the aforementioned styles of FPS) isn't the typical 90% of twitch type gameplay, it's the 10% that takes a lot of tedious practice to be good with (wisenhunt used the example of practicing for inordinate amounts of time to sidestep perfectly). At what point do you alienate part of your potentially paying fanbase because one of the aspects of the game is something that wasn't necessarily intended by the devs, but is being used to great effect and the average player doesn't have the time or patience to dedicate hours to tedious practicing? At what point does it start being detrimental to the game as a whole? At what point does the game stop being a game and start being a job?

Well I sorta answered this above. But the key thing to remember is that much of what makes a competitive player 'the best' is not required to complete the objectives or compete at the most basic level.

For example, there are many many players of CS who dont know the specifics of how to move and fire each of the weapons to be competitive at a high level, but they still can save the hostages or plant the bomb and have a good game against other players of their (low) skill level with out these high level details becoming an issue.

Eventually every player has to decide for themselves how much they want to put into the game in terms of effort. You cant expect a player who puts little effort into the game to be competitive against a player who puts a moderate ammount of effort in, this is basically what dumbing down a game is all about, evening out the skill level of players so the more numerous (lower skilled players) can feel like they are being 1337 and awesome and thus stay playing the game for longer (and have more brand loyalty and more chance of buying DLC etc).

Its impossible to make a good game and not have a point where a (normal) player has to say to themselves, 'this is as much effort as im willing to put into the game, and thus the skill level I will stick at'. PS2 is a good game in this respect as there is so many different things to do and experiance that a player wont burn out on these sorts of realisations too easily.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by Otleaz

The one who has been bitching about semantics this entire time has trouble taking me seriously?

Jumping messes with people with high ping in almost every game. The only ones it works in are games meant for jumping.

Explain how, id be interested know.

[Otleaz]

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Explain how, id be interested know.

To be honest, I don't know exactly how. I have only experienced it first hand. 10-20 ping and you can hit someone who is jumping quite easily. With 100-150 ping, the majority of your bullets go through them, even when compensating for lag.

I'm sure I could find the exact reason if I worked on the network stuff for the game.

[AzK]

To Otleaz and to a lesser extent, Zar:

I'm NOT arguing semantics, bunnyhopping is actually a GAMING TERM used to indicate a movement technique used in some shooters (usually with quake engine) where the player gains speed and air control by jumping and strafing properly.

So Otleaz, you're using a word, thinking it means something, when it means something else, that's not semantics. Know you words before you use them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping

In the Battlefield series

Traditional bunny hopping (gaining continually increasing speed during repeated jumps) has never been possible within the Battlefield series.

The term is most used in first-person shooters to refer to act of pressing the jump key while holding crouch and a movement key to move faster (especially when going down a slope) and/or to evade attacks more effectively. In several games based on Quake engines or their derivatives moving in a zigzag[2] pattern while bunny hopping (see strafejumping) is the fastest way to move around and increases length of jumps, making the player an even more difficult target. While a zigzag movement pattern may not be the fastest way to get from one point to another in other games, players may feel that the protection provided by bunny hopping more than compensates for this disadvantage. Bunny hopping might also be required to gain speed to perform a trick jump or to provide better movement control while in mid-air (especially after performing a trick jump).

Some people have indeed started to let it slide and refer to battlefield sprint jumping as bunny hopping but that's just because people are dumb and they kept bashing their heads on a brick wall till the wall collapsed. Pretty much the same as with grammar where most people nowadays let the "it's its and they're their theyre" go unpunished in non formal writing. It's still ignorant and wrong though.

Know your words, son.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Seagoon

This is one of the many difficulties a games designer faces, how to provide a high skill cap while also mantaining the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay mantra.
However, we are in luck afaik, from the gameplay at E3, it seems that the players there, who had just started playing PS2 for the first time ever seemed to pick up the basics very easily, even though im sure they were pointed in the right direction to begin with.

Somthing to remember though is that PS is a game where you dont have to play at the highest level to compete. Im sure this will be the same in PS2 as PS1, this is because the competitive elite players who play at a level where this stressful stuff is important are out numbered by quite a large ammount by normal players. Most of the time you will face other casual players so you have plenty of chance to get a good few kills in against players of your own level before running into one that takes the game srsly.



Well I sorta answered this above. But the key thing to remember is that much of what makes a competitive player 'the best' is not required to complete the objectives or compete at the most basic level.

For example, there are many many players of CS who dont know the specifics of how to move and fire each of the weapons to be competitive at a high level, but they still can save the hostages or plant the bomb and have a good game against other players of their (low) skill level with out these high level details becoming an issue.

Eventually every player has to decide for themselves how much they want to put into the game in terms of effort. You cant expect a player who puts little effort into the game to be competitive against a player who puts a moderate ammount of effort in, this is basically what dumbing down a game is all about, evening out the skill level of players so the more numerous (lower skilled players) can feel like they are being 1337 and awesome and thus stay playing the game for longer (and have more brand loyalty and more chance of buying DLC etc).

Its impossible to make a good game and not have a point where a (normal) player has to say to themselves, 'this is as much effort as im willing to put into the game, and thus the skill level I will stick at'. PS2 is a good game in this respect as there is so many different things to do and experiance that a player wont burn out on these sorts of realisations too easily.

I suppose this will also be mitigated by the fact that there will be different skillsets depending on what the person wants to do. A tank diver will have a different skillset than an infantryman. I suppose I didn't think of it that way. I'm all for fair, intuitive gameplay and I don't think someone should get something for nothing. I've seen a lot of games that were no fun because the skill level was either you're really good or you're really bad and there's no getting better unless you put in a ton of tedious time and effort into getting good (which is hard to do when you're constantly dying). Perhaps THAT is what I take issue with.