IRL wartactics in Planetside and Planetside 2 - Page 3

Figment · 2012-02-13, 04:14 PM

Now, previous page I saw some melo-dramatic exagerated stuff that basically said "forget RL strategy/tactics, non of it is applicable just because one can respawn".

I wouldn't ever follow anyone who said something akin to that into a PS fight, tbh, since clearly this person doesn't know a single bit about strategy at all. Not knowing where a strategy in game stems from and does not know any analogue situations to compare with for inspiration, sounds like a blatant ignorant to me.

"Read over and over again the campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Gustavus, Turenne, Eugene and Frederic. ... This is the only way to become a great general and master the secrets of the art of war. ..."
-Napoleon Bonaparte, "Military Maxims of Napoleon"

It's not just the exact execution of a battle, it is the little things why Alexander chose a particular bank of a river to move along, rather than cross straight through certain terrain for a shorter passage: purely due to logistics. It had more grass to feed the horses and cattle and sustain the army. Now, of course this is not directly useful in PS, but the idea is that sustaining your troops is better than recklessly wasting them. Do you siege a fortress because the enemy is there now, or should you just ignore them and move along rather than risk loss of troops and time? Reading about such things can be useful in PS, because you learn about more perspectives and you'll drive your ANT along the route with least opposition. Even if it is a longer route.

Of course we're not going to form square formations or Phalanxes to defend against horse charges. Doesn't mean some of the principles aren't useful in a more abstract sense.

Here's another few from Sun Tzu which I really like in PS context:

"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant."

<-- I'm an infil. How could I ignore this advice?

"Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Again, am an infil. Who doesn't like giving chase to an infil that is running away, fleeing, while he actually is luring you ever closer to a boomer you placed long, long ago without you ever having seen the green smoke of boomer placement?

I know a lot of people who like a... good chase.

And those who like farms, will hate this advice from dear Sun Tzu:

"In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

As any Cr5 who was interested in keeping the initiative and momentum knows though: farms can be either a useful stalling mechanism tool, or a complete disaster. Tbh, people who see it as their main way of obtaining fun (without the drive to move on) are a danger to the empire.

In that sense, I really do hope there's actual resource incentive to keep changing the terrain you're fighting over frequently.

Graywolves · 2012-02-13, 04:26 PM

It's really hard to explain to people Figment.

Like how some people don't think Sun Tzu's teachings are relevant anymore.

Many people don't know how to take information from one area and apply it to something else correctly. We grow up in a time where we follow strict rules in one area and use a seperate rule book somewhere else and claim that things elsewhere are incompatible.

People don't want to actually understand how or why things work, just what to do in a specific situation.

Soothsayer · 2012-02-13, 04:34 PM

I'm always really skeptical about people who quote the art of war or game theory. It's all got a very specific context and people pick what they want and leave the rest.

An earlier response to my inital statement that non-military styled outfits are more fun than ones run by a petty dictator was made, that person said that he likes to win.

Well, so do I, but I don't need to practise getting to the gal on time, because I'm already there. And so are the people who can be relied upon. If you have a good idea you will be followed. If you want to go backhack on a dead continent, have fun, I'm going somewhere where there's a fight.

Figment · 2012-02-13, 04:37 PM

Do you know the Sunderer from Lodestar drop maneuvre?

It's basically a combination of a classic tortoise + a classic deception move. You use a great deal of armour to get a group of units into the position they have to get into, while not alerting the enemy of an approaching gal drop because they just saw this big unarmed lodestar coming.

Hell, even a fake passage of a Galaxy over the top of a base to drop people at another location to incite premature Orbital Strikes is a classic deception move.

EDIT: @Soothsayer: Sun Tzu's context is very widely applicable, because he is purposely being extremely abstract: he wants the reader to use his words as inspiration, warning and general knowledge, not to be a literal copy cat. There are of course few things that can't be taken out of context, such as water bearers first drinking themselves leading to a thirsty army, but that's beside the point.

Personally, I'm more skeptical about people who can't think out of their own known box. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of those in PS and it's been quite disheartening. THAT is what you should be skeptical of. Lack of imagination from both zergfits and 1337fits and anywhere in between. So much wasted potential, because they just don't want to see beyond their known limitations and don't seem to be inspired by anything.

In that sense, I'd rather see you having to be skeptical of someone quoting Sun Tzu, then not being skeptical of someone thinking it's a local Chinese take away restaurant's fortune cookies.

Warborn · 2012-02-13, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Soothsayer

I'm always really skeptical about people who quote the art of war or game theory. It's all got a very specific context and people pick what they want and leave the rest.

People who quote Sun Tzu are basically full of shit. There are some fairly obvious principles which apply to playing video games, but it's nothing anyone needs to be told. It's just pretentious garbage vomited forth by people who want to present themselves as authorities on tactics or strategy.

The correlation between people who excel at non-realistic video games like Planetside 2 and people who obsess over real life military tactics and strategy is zero. How do the people who win all the tournaments and win big bucks achieve their success? Is it through poring over stuff Sun Tzu wrote, or what Hannibal did to achieve success against the armies of Rome? No. It's by playing the game a lot, clearing their head of any stupid distractions like "how would this work in real life", and instead learning how to excel at that game within the parameters of that game.

I guarantee you, the people who will be dominant in Planetside 2 will not be the people who pretend they're Erwin Rommel commanding tanks and troops in North Africa. They'll be the people whose heads are not clouded by obsession over nonsense like that, and instead focus on how the game works and how to be successful in the context of that game.

Firefly · 2012-02-13, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Soothsayer

An earlier response to my inital statement that non-military styled outfits are more fun than ones run by a petty dictator was made, that person said that he likes to win.

Some people like it. Don't like it? Don't join their fucking outfit. It's that simple. Some outfits can do the whole GI Joe thing very well. Others can't but they are no less effective on the battlefield, and they are in some cases no more effective on the battlefield.

Originally Posted by Soothsayer

but I don't need to practise getting to the gal on time, because I'm already there. And so are the people who can be relied upon.

Well hip-hip-fucking-hooray for you. You've mastered the art of moving quickly in a video game, congratulations for you. Go join the Army. There are people who play video games who are JUST GAMERS that don't understand the concept of timeliness. Hell, there are people that work for me who can't fucking get to work on time but that's another story. This isn't the military - you're not going to get a court martial or an Article 15 for missed-movement or being AWOL. And only "petty dictators" kick people out for missing the Galaxy. For those of us who are neither petty dictators nor tolerant of repeated inability to get to the dropship in a timely manner, there's the middle ground: offer to train them on how they can go from point A to point B. If they decline, politely suggest that - like the breath mint - they take it. If they decline again, at that point you have to make the decision: is this person an effective player elsewhere/otherwise? Can my outfit afford to leave them behind and the rest of us "good gamers" go do our thing, and appear to be unfriendly? Are they just doing something wrong to be that slow?

Case-by-case basis. I, for one, have no desire to sit in a loaded Galaxy in the CY at Bel waiting for some slowpoke to hurry up. But I'm not enough of a prick or petty dictator to ask them prior to joining "Can you make it from the spawn tubes to the Galaxy in full battle rattle in under a minute? CAN YOU? CAN YOU CUT THE MUSTARD, RECRUIT?!?!"

So, help me out here. What, in your opinion do I do with Private Slowpoke short of A) tolerate the snail pace or B) kick his ass to the curb and be like elitist prick outfits? Or can I just afford to offer so-called "training" for people who may not be the swiftest person on the planet, and look like the apparently-hated person who offers what looks like real-life tactics and training?

Originally Posted by Figment

Do you know the Sunderer from Lodestar drop maneuvre?

It's basically a combination of a classic tortoise + a classic deception move. You use a great deal of armour to get a group of units into the position they have to get into, while not alerting the enemy of an approaching gal drop because they just saw this big unarmed lodestar coming.

Hell, even a fake passage of a Galaxy over the top of a base to drop people at another location to incite premature Orbital Strikes is a classic deception move.

I love you. I think I just climaxed.

Graywolves · 2012-02-13, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

So, help me out here. What, in your opinion do I do with Private Slowpoke .

I always just left them. Not on the gal before it departs? Better get on it next time or find your own ride.

Figment · 2012-02-13, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

People who quote Sun Tzu are basically full of shit. There are some fairly obvious principles which apply to playing video games, but it's nothing anyone needs to be told. It's just pretentious garbage vomited forth by people who want to present themselves as authorities on tactics or strategy.

The correlation between people who excel at non-realistic video games like Planetside 2 and people who obsess over real life military tactics and strategy is zero. How do the people who win all the tournaments and win big bucks achieve their success? Is it through poring over stuff Sun Tzu wrote, or what Hannibal did to achieve success against the armies of Rome? No. It's by playing the game a lot, clearing their head of any stupid distractions like "how would this work in real life", and instead learning how to excel at that game within the parameters of that game.

I guarantee you, the people who will be dominant in Planetside 2 will not be the people who pretend they're Erwin Rommel commanding tanks and troops in North Africa. They'll be the people whose heads are not clouded by obsession over nonsense like that, and instead focus on how the game works and how to be successful in the context of that game.

Yes, because holding a chokepoint is such a non-RL thing that made people in PS capable of farming large numbers.

Spartans vs Persians, anyone?

Go learn about RL. You seem obsessed with getting away from it.

Soothsayer · 2012-02-13, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Yes, because holding a chokepoint is such a non-RL thing that made people in PS capable of farming large numbers.

Spartans vs Persians, anyone?

Go learn about RL. You seem obsessed with getting away from it.

Where did you learn about the Spartans vs Persians?

As for the tardy soldier, yeah they have to cert ATV until they can make it to the party on time...

Firefly · 2012-02-13, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Soothsayer

As for the tardy soldier, yeah they have to cert ATV until they can make it to the party on time...

Ever meet that ONE motherfucker who's G-d's gift to Heavy Assault but just can't fucking drive, period? I have one in my outfit - great guy, love him to death, really nice guy in real life. Dunno how this dude drives his car (seen that, too). Because in-game the guy can't operate anything except his leather personnel carriers worth a damn.

Humour me here. What do I do about him if he's the slowpoke, O Wise One?

Warborn · 2012-02-13, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Yes, because holding a chokepoint is such a non-RL thing that made people in PS capable of farming large numbers.

Spartans vs Persians, anyone?

Go learn about RL. You seem obsessed with getting away from it.

Yes, because nobody would be aware of the benefit of chokepoints without having studied the Battle of Thermopylae, right? Nobody would understand the value of deception without being able to cite Sun Tzu's quotes to that end? It's a game. It's amazingly simple compared to real life. You don't need to be Stonewall Jackson to know that ~~you shouldn't fight in a basement~~ stuff like fighting unnecessary fights is a bad idea. All of the crap you've described and given some vaunted real-life tactical analogy to is stuff people figured out on their own. People don't need history lessons to figure out how to be good at playing video games.

Soothsayer · 2012-02-13, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

Humour me here. What do I do about him if he's the slowpoke, O Wise One?

Clearly he needs an assistant

A chauffer...

Firefly · 2012-02-13, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Soothsayer

Clearly he needs an assistant

A chauffer...

Yeah. We call that the Galaxy. So we're back to square one.

NewSith · 2012-02-13, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Yes, because nobody would be aware of the benefit of chokepoints without having studied the Battle of Thermopylae, right? Nobody would understand the value of deception without being able to cite Sun Tzu's quotes to that end? It's a game. It's amazingly simple compared to real life. You don't need to be Stonewall Jackson to know that ~~you shouldn't fight in a basement~~ stuff like fighting unnecessary fights is a bad idea. All of the crap you've described and given some vaunted real-life tactical analogy to is stuff people figured out on their own. People don't need history lessons to figure out how to be good at playing video games.

I see no point in this arguement. RL military tactics are based on military experience. Game tactics are based on game experience. It's the same damn thing if you "play" war or play a PC game or football or anything else.

The whole point is, everything is based on common sense experience... Spartans strategy for example - if you fill your hands with water and then detach them abit, the spirt coming out of your handful will be very narrow. That's the thing you learn if you ever drank water from your hands and figuring out the way you can use it in a war or a game is quite easy. That's what Warborn says.

On the other hand, though, if you do not posses that knowledge you need to know some historical facts or get advice from other people to implement it into working tactics. That's where Figgy's point about history streps in.

You're basically arguing about 2 points which are not controversial.

Soothsayer · 2012-02-13, 05:22 PM

Hah well she-yit.

I'm not attacking milsim outfits, but I've seen tactics or some person's misguided attempt at "strategy" take the front seat from fun too many times. So that means that 1 person makes 9 people's playtime suck for no discernable reason. Backhacking makes a lot of sense if you look at it from an art of war perspective. But from the perspective of a person who plays to have fun, shoot stuff and win there is no point in being engaged in such a pointless activity -- we have what may be the most interactive, large scale cooperative video game in existence (second possibly to EVE Online but the comparison isn't there) and yet some people think that they should spend their time intentionally avoiding being where the people are.

Doesn't add up. Why do they play?