Essamir redesign is awesome, but lattice has made it incredibly zerg-centric - Page 3

Stew · 2013-07-31, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

Short and simple - if you can drive an enemy out of a continent, all you need to do is capture territories with small groups, while the main zerg follows its lane. In the end the zerg will become disconnected in a single region, with warpgate being captured and all it will be able to do is defend until it's broken.

In this scenario basically the side that has even slightly less zerg wins. Don't forget that at some point it will simply boil down to two empires on a continent, it'll never be a forceful threeway 24/7.

Actually i think you do not get the real signification of a Zergs , a Zergs isnt a unorganised large group of peoples , its the opposite , in star craft a zergs rush is actually driven by the player himself and he swarms hes opponent with a insanely large numbers of units

Actually a Ps2 zergs ( in Vs matherson ) or ( The enclave Matherson ) for refference are driven by the leaders , the zergs isnt a brainless Huge numbers of players with a tunel vision type of thing ...

The zergs are manipulated and driven by the leaders , The ps2 Zergs basically crash on anybases that need to be taken at any time and they redeploy the zergs in no time with great game mechanics that are ( exploited ) in these senarios

The Enclave was Before Vs matherson the only true Zergfits on matherson , capable of redeploying numerous platoon all at once on a single bases where the figths was already , 48+/48+ 48 % 52 % , and bang TE arrive TR jump from 52 % to 87 % lol and they simply broke then entire game making everything highly unresponsive spamming maxs and HA like no ends .. it is Horrible simply because the game tech do not suport such numerous players in the same area but also because playing 13 % to 25 % pops agains 87 % or 75 % isnt fair or fun by any mean , because if your goal is anything but kill farming , you will end up frustrated and anoye by this type of situations

Zergs and ( organised Zergs ) no matter how you want to call it , are infamous and break the goal of this game , that why so much peoples quit , thats why so much peoples think this game as no goal but either ghost capping ( boring ) or Zerging underpops , or been steam rolls by the zergfits

Stew · 2013-07-31, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

One of the key goals of the resource revamp is to spread out those large fights a bit and give smaller groups indirect impact to the front. That's while keeping players relatively in the same general vicinity but not all mashed up in one spot.

I hope you will give us more details about how the new ressources sythems work , because the more i think about it , the more i can see flaws in it from what i know about it , but i should admit that we dont know much ...

So could we have like a compleate exposure of how the ressources sythem will work with few in game situations that could explain how the ressources sythem will change this or that behavior ?

So that way we migth find some exploits or flaws , that you could fix before getting this on the live servers ...

iam kinda happy about the new ressources systhem but also worried a lots

NewSith · 2013-07-31, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Stew

Actually i think you do not get the real signification of a Zergs , a Zergs isnt a unorganised large group of peoples , its the opposite , in star craft a zergs rush is actually driven by the player himself and he swarms hes opponent with a insanely large numbers of units

Actually a Ps2 zergs ( in Vs matherson ) or ( The enclave Matherson ) for refference are driven by the leaders , the zergs isnt a brainless Huge numbers of players with a tunel vision type of thing ...

The zergs are manipulated and driven by the leaders , The ps2 Zergs basically crash on anybases that need to be taken at any time and they redeploy the zergs in no time with great game mechanics that are ( exploited ) in these senarios

The Enclave was Before Vs matherson the only true Zergfits on matherson , capable of redeploying numerous platoon all at once on a single bases where the figths was already , 48+/48+ 48 % 52 % , and bang TE arrive TR jump from 52 % to 87 % lol and they simply broke then entire game making everything highly unresponsive spamming maxs and HA like no ends .. it is Horrible simply because the game tech do not suport such numerous players in the same area but also because playing 13 % to 25 % pops agains 87 % or 75 % isnt fair or fun by any mean , because if your goal is anything but kill farming , you will end up frustrated and anoye by this type of situations

Zergs and ( organised Zergs ) no matter how you want to call it , are infamous and break the goal of this game , that why so much peoples quit , thats why so much peoples think this game as no goal but either ghost capping ( boring ) or Zerging underpops , or been steam rolls by the zergfits

There are two definitions for zerg:

A) A single player or a group of players who don't have or don't utilize their personal skill and teamwork to its full potential.
B) A group of players that uses superior numbers against a much smaller force.

There're a few things to understand:

Zerg is not a permanent state. I base this off, even myself. When I play seriously my extremely strong outfit consisting of 3 people can hold off 10 players easily (happened, just, like yesterday). But sometimes I love to just say "screw it all" and start farming kills, just for the sake of farming.
Definition A doesn't mean that zerg is unorganized, nor does defenition B.
Finally definitions are interconnected, read further:

How to tell zerg from not zerg:

Zerg uses excessive numbers to kill a single enemy. Not to mention sometimes it results in mid-air collisions between ESFs and such.
Upon spawning a zergling never waits for someone else to spawn, he takes off, straight away. Even if he does repair the Sunderer first.
Zergs don't do THIS, nor THIS, nor any kind of tactical movements and semi-exploiting that will give them tactical advantage.
Zerg's answer to everything is Heavy Assault
Zerg's reaction to ESFs and Harassers is running for cover and missiles as opposed to focused fire of primary weapons.
There's always too many medics where the zerg is.
Zerg doesn't utilize spawn beacons to their fullest.
Nor does zerg exploit squad deploy as second squad beacon.
Zerg doesn't put destroying an Enemy Sunderer above their primary activity.
Zerg's typical way of thinking is - let somebody else do what I don't want to.
Zerg AMSes are very rarely loaded with mineguard.
Zerg always stays in close proximity to capture points, even if the capture area allows to stay away from it.
The zerg leaves the continent if the resource income becomes low. Only newbs and more or less tactically aware players stay, that's why I like fighting on a continents that are getting lost.

If an outfit has large numbers, but it's truly organized, its commanders will never allow for their members to go in a large cluster, because it'll reduce their combat effectiveness and they know it. Except for situations where they are pitted against a cluster that rivals their own.

Taramafor · 2013-07-31, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

Even if they do, there's an interesting paradox - the more people wanting a small fight join that small fight, the bigger it gets.

Exactly my point. And those that want small fights look for small fights before they turn into big fights (which of course they'll also want) and everyone wins. And hopefully have fights on a front line instead of being clustered to one area all the time.

Zadexin · 2013-07-31, 01:18 PM

Why are people trying to make this game into something its not. Its a FPS that plays 1000 people per side. This game was always going to be a zergfest until there is a compelling reason NOT to be a zerg fest. It is basic human nature to concentrate maximum firepower on any target. Sure you can use flowery language all you want to say that good tactics are better than the zerg. Tell that to the WW2 Germans. Just remember, PS2 is a land war in Asia.

But for my 2 cents, I hate fighting on Esamir now. I hate the redesign, the funneling, and all the damn mountains. We already had a mountain map, a tundra map, and a desert map. Now we have desert and a temperate mountain and a cold mountain map.

Stew · 2013-07-31, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

There are two definitions for zerg:

A) A single player or a group of players who don't have or don't utilize their personal skill and teamwork to its full potential.
B) A group of players that uses superior numbers against a much smaller force.

There're a few things to understand:

Zerg is not a permanent state. I base this off, even myself. When I play seriously my extremely strong outfit consisting of 3 people can hold off 10 players easily (happened, just, like yesterday). But sometimes I love to just say "screw it all" and start farming kills, just for the sake of farming.
Definition A doesn't mean that zerg is unorganized, nor does defenition B.
Finally definitions are interconnected, read further:

How to tell zerg from not zerg:

Zerg uses excessive numbers to kill a single enemy. Not to mention sometimes it results in mid-air collisions between ESFs and such.
Upon spawning a zergling never waits for someone else to spawn, he takes off, straight away. Even if he does repair the Sunderer first.
Zergs don't do THIS, nor THIS, nor any kind of tactical movements and semi-exploiting that will give them tactical advantage.
Zerg's answer to everything is Heavy Assault
Zerg's reaction to ESFs and Harassers is running for cover and missiles as opposed to focused fire of primary weapons.
There's always too many medics where the zerg is.
Zerg doesn't utilize spawn beacons to their fullest.
Nor does zerg exploit squad deploy as second squad beacon.
Zerg doesn't put destroying an Enemy Sunderer above their primary activity.
Zerg's typical way of thinking is - let somebody else do what I don't want to.
Zerg AMSes are very rarely loaded with mineguard.
Zerg always stays in close proximity to capture points, even if the capture area allows to stay away from it.
The zerg leaves the continent if the resource income becomes low. Only newbs and more or less tactically aware players stay, that's why I like fighting on a continents that are getting lost.

If an outfit has large numbers, but it's truly organized, its commanders will never allow for their members to go in a large cluster, because it'll reduce their combat effectiveness and they know it. Except for situations where they are pitted against a cluster that rivals their own.

You want the Definition of the Words Zergs ? and how it apears as a concept in videogame ?

Read this »»» The term "Zerg Rush" or "zerging" has entered video gaming jargon to describe sacrificing economic development in favour of using many low-cost and weak units to rush and overwhelm an enemy by attrition or sheer numbers. The tactic is infamous, with most experienced RTS players being familiar with the tactic in a way or another

basically no matters is the Zergs is well organised or not a Definition of a Zergs is winning by Sheers numbers or attrition , their is No subtilitys or anything of that matters , if you use tons of units to basically swarm your opponents oppening the flood gates , it is call Zergins

Organised Zergs are even more a Zergs than the (( randoms )) who blindely become a zergs from the warp gates and then goes vanish few regions after that

In RTS games a Zergs , is driven by the player , who controles the mass of Zergling to acomplish a objective wich is detroying the ennemy ressources income and eventually the bases itself , the Zergling arent no brainers , they are driven by the player mind /point and click orders ...

In Planetside 2 A Zergs , is driven by the Leaders , who controles the mass ( of zergling players ) to acomplish a specific objective wich is capturing bases and reduce the ennemy ressources income , the ps2 Zerglinf arent totally no brainers , they are driven by the leaders mind / squad/platoon way points and VOIP orders ...

Is it the same thing , yes it is

A RANDOMS Zergs simply created itself naturally when player get out of a warpgate lock mostly and this ISNT a ZERGS that can be compare to starcraft definition of it , A TRUE ZERGS if you follow the starcraft origins ARE ORGANISED and PLAYERS DRIVEN Zergs , not no brainers randoms zergs

EDIT : In starcraft the thing that make a true Zergs infamous and efficient is how fast a players can get it done ..the faster the better

In planetside 2 the thing that make a true Zergs infamous and efficient is how fast the leaders can get their troups to regroup and crash on the regions they need

the faster the better ( great exemple The enclave ) for anyones who know that clan know that BCP was the king of the Zergs For any matherson players we all know thats Vanu matherson as become a true Zergs driven by leaders

Thats said , a Zergs rush is controled by a players who as to quickly build a army or zergling , sacrificing hes economic developments in favor of building a army of smalls troops to quickly atack is opponents and hit in its ressources mostly first and then destroy this player by attrition and sheer numbers

So where in the wold did you even get that (( definition )) of zergs ? Where in the wold a Zerg as to be unorganised ? Do you think that in starcraft where micromanagement is KING the Zergling are unorganise ? No they are not they follow the order of the RTS /point and click players , As well a Ps2 zergs follow the Platoon way point squad waypoint and VOIP orders lol

There is no way that a zergs could be truely sucessfull whiout been organised

Do you think a zergrush in starcraft could work whiout having the RTS player to controle and guided them ? if he lets hes zergs going anywhere they gonna get destroy

these Zergs are totally organised

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfl279o_Cko
here a planetside 2 Zergs exemple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H54QqQopzys

NewSith · 2013-07-31, 06:07 PM

@Stew, you are incorrect. After 4 years of PlanetSide 1, all my time in PS2, and some enormous time spent in MP FPS and RTS genres, I'm absolutely sure about my definition of the word "zerg" in PlanetSide.

But since our opinions differ in the very roots, I suggest to agree to disagree.

BlaxicanX · 2013-07-31, 06:13 PM

The problem with the "definitions" is that there's a difference between "zerg" and "zerg rush". Stew is correct in his definition of Zerg Rush, but, no one refers to zergs in PS2 as "Zerg rushes", they're just "zergs".

Zerg, by itself, is just a reference to the race in Starcraft that is iconic for being big and swarmy. That's it. When you say Zerg you're saying nothing more than "a big mindless swarm of players".

So, yeah.

Maidere · 2013-08-01, 05:01 AM

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=zerg+rush

A term used for a swarming attack, and/or winning a battle by throwing bodies and outnumbering an opponent.

This term was derived off of a video game called Starcraft which had a tactic where you are able to rush opponents by mass producing zergs and rushing them

Stew, you probably are not very familiar with Zerg in SC and don't know that it's a macro race.

Stew · 2013-08-01, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Maidere

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=zerg+rush

Stew, you probably are not very familiar with Zerg in SC and don't know that it's a macro race.

Taken from your very sources

zerg rush

The battle tactic when an immense group of poorly equiped or low -level players/minions/characters swarms a much smaller group of well-defended/high-level characters/players and defeats with sheer numbers.
Originated from the game StarCraft, in which if timed correctly you could send a dozen zerglings (lowest-level soldier avalible) into the enemy's base before they could make defenses. Spread to include any battle tactic that involved massive amounts of zerglings to overwhelm the enemy's defense.

This is exactly what happen when a VS matherson or Enclave Zergs come to take a bases they take as much troop as they can drop into the ennemy base before anyones can make any proper defense ...

Spread to include any battle tactic that involved massive amounts of zerglings to overwhelm the enemy's defense

thats it , their is no others ( Selfmade ) BS mystical way to describe a Zerg rush if you dont understand the definition and why you call this or that a zergs or if you missinterpret the signification , it dosent create a New signification that become valid just because someones beleive in it and spread this non sens

The term Zerg rush have a meaning , an origin and when you use this term to describe something it as to have the same meaning for everyones and everyones who use this word or concept as to be familiarised with its origine

diLLa · 2013-08-01, 07:16 AM

Zerg rush =/= Zerg, that's where it goes wrong.

Zerg = A race in Starcraft that's mostly about quanitity over quality, which means that they usually outnumber the opponents. Zerglings are the prime example of it, which you produce two at a time in the game. The Zerg as a term to be used in other games is mostly based on this definition, which means that zerging the opponent means using bigger numbers to accomplish the tasks.

Stew's definition of a zerg, is actually a 'Zerg Rush'

Zerg(ling) Rush = An early strategy where you produce spawning pool relatively early (which you need to produce zerlings) and invest all your money and larvae into producing zerglings to attack the opponent at an early time to end the game quickly when the opponent is not yet prepared. This strategy doesn't really have any value outside of Starcraft itself, as it is a specific strategy that only works in the game. However, you could say that the strategies some outfits utilise, in where they drop multiple squads in a (yet) undefended base resembles a bit to this strategy.

The definition of 'Zerg' however should always be the first definition though, which just basically means outnumbering the opponent by throwing more and more bodies at it.

Canaris · 2013-08-01, 07:41 AM

I say it high time for a new term to take over from "zerg" as it become to convoluted and main stream, so from here on out when referring to throwing large numbers heedlessly at an enemy it shall be now known as "The Zapp Doctrine" or TZD for short

failure to use this term will be a catapultable offence. You have been warned!

Dragonskin · 2013-08-01, 08:16 AM

Personally I like the phase "Blob Warfare" better. Just a giant blob of people covering an area and all trying to get the same kill.

I've never been one to call large outfits zergfits. The large outfits I have been in purposely try to avoid sending all their forces to one base because it is a waste of resources/man power and time. It still occasionally happens, but it usually wasn't the goal.

Getting the blob to split up is a hard thing to do. People like the path of least resistance and unfortunately following the blob yields exp from base capping if nothing else. Don't even have to worry about being killed. Actually on my TR I even tend to do that if my outfit isn't running. Just follow the zerg and use my Striker to tag vehicles for assist exp... kill the occasional enemy that the zerg didn't catch. Easy game session that doesn't take any skill or thought process. Can't say it is as fun as actually participating in a squad with a goal, but at least you can feel productive even though you didn't actually do much... which is the reason so many people do it.

Why throw yourself at the enemy when you can possibly die and get out played when you can follow the zerg and get decent exp with minimal risk?

I think that is a problem, but human nature. Especially when you still have KDR and SPM as stats that matter to a lot of people even though they can be so skewed now that they are worthless. Following a zerg will usually net you a revive which means you will have less deaths on your KDR. If you follow a squad that tries to tackle their own objectives there is a bigger chance that you won't get that revive if your squad is slaughtered.

KesTro · 2013-08-01, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Zadexin

Why are people trying to make this game into something its not. Its a FPS that plays 1000 people per side. This game was always going to be a zergfest until there is a compelling reason NOT to be a zerg fest. It is basic human nature to concentrate maximum firepower on any target. Sure you can use flowery language all you want to say that good tactics are better than the zerg. Tell that to the WW2 Germans. Just remember, PS2 is a land war in Asia.

Thing is, what people want it to be it already was before they introduced the lattice. Maybe in the long run the lattice will shine but for the time being I feel like we've lost more with the lattice than we gained until they add everything that's supposed to go with the lattice.

*Edit*: Not to say that 'everyone' wants the same thing.

Figment · 2013-08-01, 01:16 PM

The only thing I wonder is if all the links are proper. The lattice on Esamir is a rather long line with very few circumvention routes. Three more links might actually benefit the flow without endangering the lattice effect.