Gameplay: MAX Melee Arm (Sacrifice a gun for better melee)

[jakaul]

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

heh ok, are we done now with the sarcastic cutesy stuff?

I think if this is simply an upgraded version of the melee attack that the MAX already has, then its not going to be the end of the world. Honestly the draw I think is the visual of having a make a MAX with a big ass claw or fist. I still say give it a jack of all trades damage type, master of none.

You're in trouble if you expect me to ever be done with sarcasm. Anyway, I still think strong melee is a very bad idea given you can easily change your class, according to what we've been told. Actually, I think maxes should have weak weapons...

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by jakaul

You're in trouble if you expect me to ever be done with sarcasm. Anyway, I still think strong melee is a very bad idea given you can easily change your class, according to what we've been told. Actually, I think maxes should have weak weapons...

A MAX is a hybrid unit, between infantry and vehicle. Unlike base infantry classes, I believe it costs resources to deploy. It's basically a super light tank in that sense. A MAX with weak weapons defeats the purpose of having a heavy unit. And how does a stronger melee mean a bad idea when paired with changing the class? A stronger melee would not be much of an overpowered effect on a MAX anyways. You'd have to give up one of those two shiny chainguns you mount on your arms. The game is also a lot more open, so there's a heavy tactical disadvantage too. I don't see how anyone can think it'd be OP, there's too many factors saying otherwise.

[Sledgecrushr]

40k imagery is just so incredibly bad assed. So yeah of course I am all for max melee.

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

40k imagery is just so incredibly bad assed. So yeah of course I am all for max melee.

Exactly. The biggest point of this idea, is it really won't go overkill, and while difficult to use, MANY people would LOVE to see it, if done right. 40K has a sort of medieval sci fi feel to it, while PS2 is a sci fi realistic war (for what it is anyways). Melee weapons have to be done right and not be something you use all the time. It's an encounter weapon more than an engagement weapon, it happens and you use it, you wouldn't normally got hunting someone down just to melee. But the alure of heavy armor melee is very popular, and could help add to the depth of PS2 for what can draw in more players, without being a godlike option.

[MorioMortis]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

Exactly. The biggest point of this idea, is it really won't go overkill, and while difficult to use, MANY people would LOVE to see it, if done right. 40K has a sort of medieval sci fi feel to it, while PS2 is a sci fi realistic war (for what it is anyways).

Indeed, 40k is pretty much Warhammer IN SPACE with more GRIMDARK(tm), while Planetside has more of a late WW1 feel to it, with added mobility. As such, melee weapons don't have to be impressive, or to have over the top effects (like huge knockbacks or EMP'ing vehicles); they should just be nasty, efficient killing devices that happen to prefer to be directly stuck inside someone's innards rather than delegating the responsibility to some tiny chunk of metal or plasma it is content to spit out at conveniently colored bystanders.

[Karrade]

Originally Posted by JayX

I would imagine that the majority of the people supporting this thread have at some point had bfr certed (if they played ps1). So lets see, FPS's really aren't your forte pshh don't worry, in our game you can jump inside a unit that has 3x as much armor as every other ground unit, has a weapon that is twice as powerful, and guess what if your aim is terrible you can just run up to these inferior weaklings and bash their face in. In return the only thing these smaller units can do is damage you with one type of weapon, if they are not carrying that weapon then it's instawin for you, well lets face it you are behind the controls so its instawin anyway you slice it.

So, does that sound enticing? Don't worry about skill when you can just be a walking arsenal of death. Still not enticing enough? Lets also make it so your suit has a built in applicator that allows you to resurrect yourself. We don't want you to have a respawn timer now do we, your empire needs you way to much. Aircraft/Vehicles a problem? Don't worry we have that covered too, whenever you are within range of any vehicle flares will shoot out of your rear end attracting all projectiles away from you.
Please let me know if I missed anything we can add to this idea!

Probably dumbest idea I have ever heard, well next to the VS hoverboard idea on these forums..

The assumptions and flat out static nonesense in this post are incredible. At least few actual points were made for or against anything, else we might have a discussion.

Slow melee, make guns more effective if the attacker is seen coming, melee becomes an option but not a preference for most, useful when you get the drop on your opponent. I am not sure what hulking BFR's have to do with an infantry man putting his fist into someone's stomach but I will humour you.

Anything is workable in the tactical balance, it is just whether it'd be fun or not. If BFR's hadn't been stupidly overpowered, far too big and made tanks useless (at the time)... - I say this being one of the players that left PS1 when they were introduced in their initial state.

[jakaul]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

A MAX is a hybrid unit, between infantry and vehicle. Unlike base infantry classes, I believe it costs resources to deploy. It's basically a super light tank in that sense. A MAX with weak weapons defeats the purpose of having a heavy unit. And how does a stronger melee mean a bad idea when paired with changing the class? A stronger melee would not be much of an overpowered effect on a MAX anyways. You'd have to give up one of those two shiny chainguns you mount on your arms. The game is also a lot more open, so there's a heavy tactical disadvantage too. I don't see how anyone can think it'd be OP, there's too many factors saying otherwise.

So first point, if the melee Max gets a wolf with it, then I'm all in. I'd even pay money if I could name him Socks and give him the special ability to do a leg up peeing animation on dead enemy bodies. Don't eat the yellow snow, children.

Well, I'm thinking more from a balance point of view. If you want this thing to have heavy armor, then you should have to give up something - be it that it's hard to get (through cert trees, cost, etc) with nice weapons or it's somewhat easy to get with weaker weapons. Otherwise, why wouldn't people just always run around in it and have battle of the bots like Jay's picture? What would my incentive be to pull Heavy Assault if I can just run around and own in a big mech with tons of armor and offense?

Obviously, these are just concerns without any knowledge of the level of difficulty it is to acquire the MAX. Immersion is great, but people giving up on the game because you know you're fucked as soon as you see a MAX in the area isn't a good thing either, ya know?

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by jakaul

So first point, if the melee Max gets a wolf with it, then I'm all in. I'd even pay money if I could name him Socks and give him the special ability to do a leg up peeing animation on dead enemy bodies. Don't eat the yellow snow, children.

Well, I'm thinking more from a balance point of view. If you want this thing to have heavy armor, then you should have to give up something - be it that it's hard to get (through cert trees, cost, etc) with nice weapons or it's somewhat easy to get with weaker weapons. Otherwise, why wouldn't people just always run around in it and have battle of the bots like Jay's picture? What would my incentive be to pull Heavy Assault if I can just run around and own in a big mech with tons of armor and offense?

Obviously, these are just concerns without any knowledge of the level of difficulty it is to acquire the MAX. Immersion is great, but people giving up on the game because you know you're fucked as soon as you see a MAX in the area isn't a good thing either, ya know?

It sounds like you're calling a MAX overpowered, not the replacing of a higher powered gun with a melee weapon. MAX units are slow, costly, and only obtainable at bases, you cannot get a MAX at a deployed Galaxy. They also cannot pilot vehicles. They can take headshots. They are essentially, the lightest "tank" vehicle in the game. They can't take over any bases either. They support with offensive and defensive abilities.

That said, a MAX can melee as is. This suggestion is to take off one of it's mass infantry slaughtering weapons, for a weapon that boosts it's melee. Melee would be an instant heavy case of damage, but less DPS than any of the guns, and flamethrowers can probably torch a group of infantry at one time. It's for people who rather get close to confuse enemies, or get a nice hit on enemies running around the corner. There is also the lack of headshots being made.

The MAX units are far less agile and slower than infantry units, even if they can sprint, it's got almost zero turn radius when in run mode. A MAX unit can have dual chainguns, dual shotguns, dual flamethrowers - replacing a high powered ranged weapon for something to whack the hell out of an enemy that charges a corner too quickly, and having less DPS than the ranged weapons, is not overpowered.

Sacrifice, being greater than the gain, for a tactical advantage is fair. There is also the point that suggested weapons are not as effective for a MAX.

An example to further why this isn't as overpowered as the panicking nay sayers.

Let's put a MAX with 2 chainguns versus a max with a chaingun and melee weapon. The melee MAX has to approach the other MAX, while firing the single gun, but is being pelted with 2 chainguns, that's twice the firepower. When the melee MAX finally arrives at the gun MAX, it's taken massive damage. The use of the melee weapon does high damage on an instant, but is not nearly as powerful as a gun continuously firing on it. The gun MAX wins.

Lets say Melee MAX doesn't get shot until in melee range. The dual chainguns still do more direct damage, gun MAX still wins. Gun MAX can also headshot - he wins by a landslide.


The use of a Melee MAX is you can't run out of ammo for the melee. If you get an annoying infantry unit running up too close, you can take him out in one hit if it's taken damage before, or finish him off with the other arm gun.

So, now, you can see a Melee MAX isn't all that useful, but some must ask: "Is there really a point for it?!"

Yes there is. I'm sure we've ALL seen the E3 videos with MAXes. With a MAX unit able to take headshots, one of the most popular ways of killing a MAX, was dashing from around a corner right in it's face to get an entire clip of ammo into headshots at point blank. If a MAX has a melee weapon, he will crush that infantryman out of the way or kill him outright. This can help keep enemies at a less accurate distance away so that the MAX can fire the second gun without fear of being unarmed when the ammo runs out or being shotgunned to the face repeatedly.

[jakaul]

Actually, you're right. I did kind of turn my thing into a don't overpower the MAX type of rant. Which is still a good point, but not really part of your idea.

I think what was getting me really riled up was the thoughts of having a MAX that could charge, knockback, etc with a melee weapon. That seems a little ridiculous. If your idea is to just toss on a melee weapon in place of a gun but leave off all the silly crap that makes it a World of Warcraft tank, then I'm cool with the idea.

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by jakaul

Actually, you're right. I did kind of turn my thing into a don't overpower the MAX type of rant. Which is still a good point, but not really part of your idea.

I think what was getting me really riled up was the thoughts of having a MAX that could charge, knockback, etc with a melee weapon. That seems a little ridiculous. If your idea is to just toss on a melee weapon in place of a gun but leave off all the silly crap that makes it a World of Warcraft tank, then I'm cool with the idea.

Well, if you look closely, I'm not suggesting ALL the ideas, I'm just putting forward potential ideas for it. There is also the balancing with various ideas.

A knockback wouldn't throw you on your back, but might push you back a bit, a vehicle knockback would be skidded a little bit and just have to readjust the aim or drive away to avoid the second hit.

A stagger would just make your aim change, just turn back to the MAX and back up.

Range could be more or less, with a bigger area of hit or smaller.

All these points aren't jumbled together, but with give and takes.

A long range weapon with larger are of hit, like a sword thing, would do less damage and not have any secondary effects.

A Long range weapon with an impact hit would deal good damage

A short range weapon with knockback or stagger does less damage

A short range weapon with no knockback or stagger, and is an impact hit does the most damage.

Certain weapons can charge, and others can't.

A damaging charge can only hit on person, it's like a charge and punch a single enemy type of attack. Also, charging has very little turning ability, and must reach top speed before the bonus can be applied, meaning you need a certain distance apart to do it.

A pushing charge is where you just run through the enemy and push them to the side with a bit of stagger. I doubt this would be as fun as the damaging charge though. But I felt it needed to be talked about a little, so I kept it.


This is what I'm saying with all those points. Balancing it to not be OPed, but people don't read that part. You basically assign points to things like DPS, abilities, range, and impacts, and don't exceed a certain count so that all weapons balance out.

Having them all in a single weapon would be absolutely ABSURD!

Also, stagger and knockback are "maybes", damage weapons and a charge with bonus damage are MUCH better. Then it's swing or thrust/jab, and range and damage to worry about.

Swords, pikes, busters, and knuckles oh my!

[jakaul]

It's kind of like a PS1 MAX crash in the making, but even worse in that it'll knockback, stagger, and possibly damage defenders. I'm curious how you would defend what you're suggesting. Say your squad of 10 is fighting 15 people and you're holding a CC room. Why wouldn't the attackers just run 5 Warriors (oops, I meant melee MAXes) in as chokepoint breakers and have your guns mop the rest up in the chaos?

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by jakaul

It's kind of like a PS1 MAX crash in the making, but even worse in that it'll knockback, stagger, and possibly damage defenders. I'm curious how you would defend what you're suggesting. Say your squad of 10 is fighting 15 people and you're holding a CC room. Why wouldn't the attackers just run 5 Warriors (oops, I meant melee MAXes) in as chokepoint breakers and have your guns mop the rest up in the chaos?

Well, the Melee would be of lower attack power than gun toting MAXes. There's no life or defense boost to go with a melee arm. If you have 5 Melee MAXes coming at 5 Gun MAXes, the Melees are going to be shredded. If a MAX had guns you're not going to run at it down a corridor, you're going to ambush it or hit it with rockets. Rockets work even better against a Melee using MAX since it can only use one weapon to attack you.

You seem to be mistaking this on typical MMO profiling of Classes.

This isn't making them stronger and Melee based, it's literally a switch of a melee weapon in place of a gun. They are not stronger, or better, they just have a tactical weapon to assist in certain close quarters combat.

I'll just give an example again, just to show DPS

Let's say a Chaingun gives 10 dmg a second
A Melee weapon would give 30 dmg every hit, but can swing only every 4 seconds.

We have one MAX with melee arm and gun, one with two guns

In 8 seconds of combat the results are

Melee MAX - 80dmg with gun, 60 dmg with arm.

Gun MAX - 80 + 80 dmg

You have 140 vs 160 dmg.

Even if you have stagger or knockback with melee weapons, they still can't perform headshots.

So the end result isn't 140 vs 160, but adding in random headshots, it's about 160 vs 200 dmg. As MAX do not gain a bonus in life or defense or whatever depending on the weapon, the chaingun MAX will win.

Try fending off soldiers with rocket launchers at a range when you only have one gun.

In the end, that situation is far better than seeing 5 MAXes with Dual Flamethrowers holding that CC.

Really though, the DPS of a Melee MAX is lower than I mentioned, because you can't shoot while performing a melee swing.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

Yes there is. I'm sure we've ALL seen the E3 videos with MAXes. With a MAX unit able to take headshots, one of the most popular ways of killing a MAX, was dashing from around a corner right in it's face to get an entire clip of ammo into headshots at point blank. If a MAX has a melee weapon, he will crush that infantryman out of the way or kill him outright.

Something odd has just occurred to me. In the footage we've all seen so far, has anyone seen a MAX actually use a melee attack?

[Zekeen]

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

Something odd has just occurred to me. In the footage we've all seen so far, has anyone seen a MAX actually use a melee attack?

Yeah, they just cross their arm toward the chest and then slug it forward a little. You could keep the animation with any bladed melee weapon.

[Dacrim]

this is an awesome idea imo!!