My main concern about the class system - Page 3

Headrattle · 2011-07-25, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

And this happens in most class games. Enter into a TF2 game for example. Even though it is a constant close in battle, and everyone has their roles, if there is a role sorely lacking (no medic or no heavy) the new guy is more likely to choose that role. This will get worse for PS2. Assaulting a base with high walls? Most people will likely use the jump jets to get there. Constant infantry zerging in? Most will choose HA. People will tend to choose what they are having the most success at in any given moment. There were many times in PS1 that I wish I had a certain cert at a certain time, but didn't so I had to make due. I still had fun, but I couldn't be everything at once with any real success. With classes, if I need to be something at a certain time, I just hit an equipment station and I am that class. I believe that most players will do this because in other less varied games most players DO do this.

I don't think the old system is the correct solution, it would need some modification but the core ideas are sound. Of course at this point they've probably invested so much into the new design that completely revamping it may not be practical. It was one of the two big hightlights of the fanfaire...the new cert system & the resource/territory control changes. Going back on that would take a lot of convincing and would require some fundamental flaws that cannot be resolved by tweaking that system. I think that is quite unlikely. The new system is very likely going to stay, so the question is the nuances of it as opposed to the fundamentals.

I agree. We shouldn't have a cert system exactly like PS1, but we should be working to make it better. There is another thing. The cert system gave your character personality. This is my tank driver, he is geared to drive tanks and support when out of the tank. I have an HA/AV guy, but he isn't as high. Things like that.

I think that getting the cert so you can choose the class in the first place would be good, but only after so much time has passed so you can know what you want to do.

Coreldan · 2011-07-25, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

I agree. We shouldn't have a cert system exactly like PS1, but we should be working to make it better. There is another thing. The cert system gave your character personality. This is my tank driver, he is geared to drive tanks and support when out of the tank. I have an HA/AV guy, but he isn't as high. Things like that.

I think that getting the cert so you can choose the class in the first place would be good, but only after so much time has passed so you can know what you want to do.

On another note, "requiring" alts is bad design, IMO

Headrattle · 2011-07-25, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

On another note, "requiring" alts is bad design, IMO

Who said anything about "requiring alts?" You don't have to have an alternate character. Why would you think that? For example: I have a few alts, but I never play them, thus I don't have to have them.

Coreldan · 2011-07-25, 06:25 PM

That's why "requiring", not requiring

I was mainly referring to that having to have multiple chars to do multiple roles isn't really quite cool either, at least not for that many.

ShowNoMercy · 2011-07-25, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by cashfoyogash

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

Rbstr · 2011-07-25, 06:33 PM

You haven't played EVE much at all if you think the Skill system is what keeps newer players behind vets.

Hint: "It's the Economy, Stupid."

Headrattle · 2011-07-25, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

That's why "requiring", not requiring

I was mainly referring to that having to have multiple chars to do multiple roles isn't really quite cool either, at least not for that many.

I like it. I would prefer having multiple characters to being able for one character to do everything. This isn't a normal FPS. This is an MMOFPS. Because of that, you need to fill your role better then you could with an FPS. With the old cert system you start to fill the role you liked playing the most because you had to choose what role you liked playing. Sure, you could swap characters, but it wasn't easy and it wasn't necessary. You liked flying, you flew. You liked being infantry, you were infantry. Over time, you could do some other things but not everything. This is much different then allowing everyone to fill any role, just not as well as their main role. Say I am usually an infiltrator and have advancement in that area. But it comes time when the battle would sway to the point that I would be better used if I was a Max. So, I become a max when it was needed. One of the things you are losing is teamwork and a reliance on other players with different styles or specializations. Instead of "We need MAXs at Laka" it will be "Change into MAXs at Laka." You lose some of that tactical element as weell as character development when everyone can do everything.

kaffis · 2011-07-25, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

Time-based skill tree training.

Sure, in an indoor fight, everybody will be in the HA role or whatever. But only 4 people out of 20 will be heavily invested in it. So you've got 16 people grunting around at 100-105%, and 4 people grunting around at 115-120%. I'll take that. Especially when you consider that it'll be 4 people grunting at 115%+ HA, 3 people Medicing at 115%+, 2 people Engineering at 115%+, one or two people Commanding at 115%+, 2 people in MAX suits at 115%+, and then the remaining 8 people (who are heavily invested in vehicles and piloting) HA grunting at 105%.

Honestly? I like this better than a restrictive number of certs in old-school PS1 days. Because now, my whole two-squad platoon is working together inside, instead of the tank driver(s) and his gunners sitting in the courtyard while the reaver pilot(s) just roam all over the damn place because they weren't certed for indoor combat.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-07-25, 07:55 PM

There will be the level of flexibility you fear, but not everyone will be fighting on equal terms. One guy may be going heavy weapons, but he has no training in their use, where as the other guy has been focusing almost solely on heavy weapons, so he's just plain better with all of his customization options.

Also, if your side is bringing in a fleet of reavers, and you expect the other side to bring AV out the wazoo to counter it, grab a damn sniper rifle/machine gun and pick them off. If one side fails to cover for an allies weakness, they will fail. The class numbers will balance themselves out naturally or the lemmings will suffer defeat after miserable defeat. PS2 won't just be a simple game of rock, paper, scissors, it will be a game where you have to play your rock, paper, and scissors correctly against the other guy's rock, paper, and scissors or you will lose. Expect a lot of players dedicated to their role as there will likely more often than not always be a situation where they're needed.

Bags · 2011-07-26, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

I'm hoping that you can't have it; with it you are too versatile and independent which is what the devs seem to be putting in the class system to restrict.

The point of this thread is that I am worried about PS2 being too restrictive, making you pick only one of those 4 roles in any life. I want a mid point; one where you can have a support tool (eg medic or engy), but also a particular weapon (eg HA or AV), while having a certain armour (eg Agile or Rexo).

"You're too independent"
*Bags constantly squaded with 4 - 5+ people back in the day*

You were saying?

And if we limit certs where I cannot have any vehicles, hacking, or improved certs I DO NOT SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING HA / AV / MED / ENG. I am a self-sustaining indoor grunt. Okay, now I need transportation. I need people to hack doors for me. I'm mildly effective at outdoor combat. I can benefit from a heavily specc'd medic.

Where is the problem? Where is the elimination of teamwork? There's no need for a class system when their old system worked fine.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-07-26, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by Bags

And if we limit certs where I cannot have any vehicles, hacking, or improved certs I DO NOT SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING HA / AV / MED / ENG. I am a self-sustaining indoor grunt.

Y'see, THAT's the problem. No one is supposed to be completely self-sustaining in any one role. To some degree maybe you can make a recovery in between fire fights, but you'll want someone dedicated to healing you and someone else dedicated to patching up your armor for any real foray into enemy territory.

They also want everyone to have some form of quick transportation from fight to fight, though with the front line being where ever your forces are clashing with the enemy, as opposed to simply within the sphere of influence around a base or tower, vehicle transportation seems only necessary for getting to a battle once, then following through until you're ready to log off.

Baron · 2011-07-26, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by ShowNoMercy

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.

Vancha · 2011-07-26, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by ShowNoMercy

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

Newb: I shot you plentiful times, Veteran. How is it your body does not lay at my feet?!

Vet: I had Personal Shield, defenseless newbie. It drains my stamina instead of my mortality, so that I might survive to fight another day!

Newb: How might I obtain such a mighty tool, oh distinguished Veteran of war?

Vet: From the depositories that imbue super powers at battle ranks 6, 12 and 18!

Aractain · 2011-07-26, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Bags

"You're too independent"
*Bags constantly squaded with 4 - 5+ people back in the day*

You were saying?

And if we limit certs where I cannot have any vehicles, hacking, or improved certs I DO NOT SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING HA / AV / MED / ENG. I am a self-sustaining indoor grunt. Okay, now I need transportation. I need people to hack doors for me. I'm mildly effective at outdoor combat. I can benefit from a heavily specc'd medic.

Where is the problem? Where is the elimination of teamwork? There's no need for a class system when their old system worked fine.

Its not really about teamwork from my point of view. Its about gameplay. If everyone is self suffient there isn't as much variety in gameplay. The devs literally can't add more features to the game for the fear of overpowering the super soliders.

Your setup is 3 major areas of gameplay all in one with no disadvantages. A good game design gives you meaningful choices with trade offs and because you can't do everything you can make everything more powerful and more fun - putting more depth into each skillset.

ShowNoMercy · 2011-07-26, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Baron

I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.

So you dont think there will be goodies along the tree that award benefits like implants in PS1? the devs only made comment to the overall dmg output. There could still be skills later up the tree that make things unbalanced in a vet's favor.

Additionally, In PS1 you could play for 6months and get br25 pretty easy. In PS2 I fear that no matter how long I play, if i started a year behind you I will always be a year behind you in skills.